GRTiQ Podcast: 95 Alex Pakalniskis

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Alex Pakalniskis (00:00:14):

I don’t see anything in the future yet just because it’s too far, it’s too hazy, but I know The Graph will be somewhere there just powering the plumbing of where data’s moving around, just because I don’t see any other alternative to the decentralized data layer in a future internet.

Nick (00:01:09):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today I’m speaking with Alex Pakalniskis, Graph Advocate and member of Graph AdvocatesDAO. In addition to his contributions in web3 and The Graph, Alex also works as a full-time Product Engineer at Esri, an industry-leading mapping software and spatial analytics company. There’s a good chance you’ve already met Alex. He’s very active in Graph Advocates in the broader Graph community, often hosting online events such as coding workshops or social events like an online scavenger hunt.

(00:01:41):

During this interview, Alex talks about his full-time job at Esri, how he became interested in web3 and found his way to The Graph, his experiences as a Graph Advocate and AdvocatesDAO member, and his membership in a new community organized Indexer, IndexerDAO. And as you’ll hear, Alex is incredibly thoughtful, smart and eager to help others on their own web3 journeys. As always, I started the conversation off with Alex by asking about his educational background.

Alex Pakalniskis (00:02:13):

My path has been windy but fun. In high school, I was a music magnet student, and so I was going to college with the intent of doing music education. That didn’t really work out and so I went to community college, Santa Monica College for two years, mostly did general education, pivoted and eventually transferred to UCLA and got my degree in biochem. And so going from music education, I think I was political science for a little bit there. And then just 180 to biochem. Took a lot of different classes, learned a lot, but through the degree, realized the wet lab was not my thing and wearing a lab coat is a bummer. And so I went back to the community college just to continue learning and seeing what was out there because I feel like I was in the mind space of just rushing to finish. And I think a lot of people my age could relate.

(00:03:09):

And so going back, I wasn’t in as much of a rush and I just took stuff that looked interesting or fun and I found geography. And so ended up enrolling in grad school, got my master’s degree in geography, tried to do PhD, did that for a year and a half, but dropped out once I realized it’s not what I expected or what I wanted out of life. But geography was amazing, a super interesting field that I don’t think a lot of Americans are too familiar with, but it’s much more prevalent in Europe and just abroad generally. That’s my first exposure to technology. And I did something called GIS or Geographic Information Systems, and that’s something that relates to my current employer, Esri, which is the biggest GIS software creator globally.

(00:03:56):

But I started dabbling with tech in grad school at Long Beach, eventually did drone remote sensing, got to travel to West Africa three times to do field work, collect data. Did most of my research in Malibu on grasslands, just flying drones, collecting data a bunch, carrying a lot of equipment down into the valley. Good times though, and I’m broadly trained in that sense, but always been drawn to technology. And so I think that I’m an engineer now and it’s been helpful having not just purely technical experience because a lot of problems are not just purely technical problems. And so being able to see a lot of different perspectives is definitely an asset in my tool chest. I’d say that’s the whirlwind.

Nick (00:04:46):

Well, Alex, your background there is part of the reason why I always ask this question first with the podcast because there’s so much of a varied and diverse educational background of all the guests of the podcast. You started off in music, went into biochem, and then ended up with a master’s degree in geography. Talk to me about what a master’s degree in geography actually entails? Like you said there, not a lot of people are familiar with the discipline or appreciate it perhaps the way that they should. What is a master’s in geography?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:05:17):

Yeah. So I guess to clarify, I have a master of arts in geography, and so I wrote a thesis which is a small little book and it’s peer reviewed research on particular area of academic inquiry. And so my focus was in the subspecialty of, I guess physical geography and really just looking at grasses in Southern California valleys that have a long history of I guess human disturbance, whether by farming or by tourism. And so seeing how invasive species interact with native species and using drones to try to capture that data in a way that satellites aren’t really capable of, or it’s too expensive with airplanes or other technology.

(00:06:08):

And so that was really in the earlier days of I’d say consumer drone usage and I guess academic data collection. I haven’t been as involved in the space over the last few years, but back then it was a little bit of a Wild West on figuring out how things worked. And so there was a lot of just experimentation. And so I think that was part of why it was fun and exciting to me. It was just figuring stuff out on the fly. And I think there’s a lot of parallels to that in the web3 space where it’s a moving target in a lot of ways. And so you’re trying to orient yourself and it’s not always easy.

Nick (00:06:46):

What are the types of things we would learn by flying a drone over grass in Malibu or in Africa? What’s the intelligence we gather and then what can we do with that?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:06:56):

I guess the main area that overlaps in those two regions would be like fire risk. Grasses are very flammable, especially when there’s not much rain. And so in places where there’s drought, whether it’s longer seasonal drought cycles or more recent I guess uncertain causes, but just like the Southwest has been really dry. And so you can, I guess track the relative moisture and health of plants using sensors attached to satellites, airplanes and drones or even balloons. Some people have attached them to long sticks. You can get creative.

(00:07:36):

And so you’re really trying to track the health of plants using these almost scientific photographs. And so you can either take a single snapshot like today, which provides you a certain value or my thesis approach and what others do is doing repeat data collection to try to see the change over time of different species or areas in a region to try to see if maybe there’s issues with disease in certain trees like the bark beetle infestation, which has really messed up the Southwest, or just the West in general.

(00:08:17):

And these are just land management tools used by, I guess governments, but also industry like agriculture. It’s a huge user of this kind of technology to monitor crops, droughts, how that’s affecting yields and had its huge implications for the prices at the grocery store. And so these are tools that we’re not really touching every day as normal people, but they have huge implications for policy for the cost of stuff at the grocery store. Governments are using these kinds of sensors, not the drone stuff I was doing, but in the same class of environmental sensing to really make billion dollar decisions for the future.

(00:09:02):

And so these are very important tools to at least be aware of. People don’t need to be experts, but this is a technology like the centralized blockchains that has huge implications for the world and a lot of people just don’t really know. Geography is that field that heavily leverages these technologies, but it’s not just that, which is why it’s really awesome. A lot of my classmates and professors were social theorists, and so we have nothing in common from the perspective of our research in the sense of I’m doing way more technological, natural resource biology focused. They’re looking at the experience of place in certain areas, serving people, doing ethnographic research.

(00:09:52):

I feel like geography is one of the few disciplines in the academy or universities where you have such a broad scope of research and where you get professors and students just talking about really weird stuff together and having the strangest, most exciting conversations because you’re not all just really smart mathematicians or really smart creative writers. You have both and all the in-between, and I think that’s where really exciting thought emerges. And so for me, geography is this hidden gem that I hope more people become aware of. I didn’t realize about it until I was in my third or fourth year of undergrad. It’s a really cool degree to check out. Would recommend 10 out of 10.

Nick (00:10:44):

Well, Alex, you and I are speaking today because you are a member of Graph AdvocatesDAO. You’re also a Graph Advocate, and also a member of the recently launched IndexerDAO. Before we get to all of that and the things that you’ve been working on in each of those capacities, I want to ask you more about what you’re doing. You one of many guests of the podcast who are working in web3, but also have a full-time job. You alluded to it there, but I’d like to learn more about what you’re doing day to day?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:11:11):

I work at Esri right now. E-S-R-I is another way it’s pronounced, as a Product Engineer. And I am on the team working on the product called ArcGIS Online, which is the web app for making web maps. I’ve been there for a little over a year now and it’s surreal because I was using Esri software in grad school and they were part of the inspiration for why I learned how to code because I got frustrated with some of the Esri stuff. And so it’s in a way really cool coming back full circle. And I work on the internal tools side of things. And so I’m building software for Esri employees so they can make sure that the customer facing software is working as expected.

(00:11:58):

And so I guess it’s a hybrid between software engineering with some data engineering and DevOps thrown in there. And so it’s a fun hybrid role and I get to learn a lot from different teams. I work with designers, product engineers, software engineers, product managers, just trying to collaborate and build tools to help them do their jobs more easily. So automation is what I live and breathe day to day, and that’s the gist of my day job there. Yeah, it’s been a lot of fun and I look forward to learning more and building some cool stuff.

Nick (00:12:35):

So when someone like you on the podcast says, “”That’s why I started to learn to code,” it implies that you are self-taught in some ways, but that to me is very overwhelming. There’s so many different languages and so many different ways to approach that front and backend. So how did you approach it? How did you learn and what did you end up learning? What are you able to do?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:12:55):

Yeah, so I guess to clarify too, I learned how to code so that I could stay home and not go to the academic lab and use the Esri software because I wanted to just chill on my deck and enjoy the sunshine sometimes. And so our school didn’t have the online licenses because this was earlier too. And so you had to go into the lab to use the software, which I just wanted to stay home. And so that was my initial, “Oh, I am a lazy engineer,” moment. But I was in grad school when I really got inspired to look into it, just coding. No one in my department really knew how, but I was doing some stuff with the imagery processing from the drone data collection, but I needed to automate. And so just repetitive tasks, just trying different variations on experiments or saving different versions of files that when done manually would either be very tedious, very tedious and take too long or just I would mess up.

(00:14:04):

And so the language used pretty commonly for those kind of tasks is called Python. And so that was my first real exposure to coding programming. And so really just the start, I feel like for most people that aren’t in a CS program in college is just Googling stuff, trying things that are way too advanced for their understanding, and then just bashing their head against error messages until it works finally. And then there’s an aha moment and it’s this slow uphill battle that unless you’re really curious and just something clicks internally where, “Oh, this is kind of fun,” the struggle, I feel like it’s probably not for you, and that’s totally cool. It’s not inherently fun unless it is for you.

(00:14:54):

And so I think that there’s this… I don’t want to say masochistic, but just like you have to enjoy puzzles that are challenging, that aren’t clear from the start. And so Python was this tool that I used to automate my analysis workflows for grad school, but it didn’t really stop there. And I kept just diving deeper into Python, just getting more curious about I guess the engineering side of stuff and less so about pure geography. And so I think that’s where I struggled when I attempted a PhD program. I was really enjoying going hard on the tech and leaning into gnarly technology and learning, but that’s not what the geography PhD is.

(00:15:41):

And when I had that internal, I guess acceptance that that’s okay not to pursue that, it was really freeing to lean into being a builder and a problem solver and using code to be creative because I guess that’s another rant I have real quickly. I feel like not enough people realize how creative being a programmer or coding is. It’s like you’re writing poems for computers and they have a purpose in mind. You might not be evoking a human emotion, but you’re invoking a task on a remote server.

(00:16:18):

And so I think that coding is this wildly creative pursuit that is just really satisfying, and it started with Python for me. Along the way, I picked up JavaScript because I needed to use Google Earth Engine to do some processing for the PhD program that I left and kept with Python mostly. Lately it’s been rust for the fun side learning, but at Esri it’s mainly Python and TypeScript. That’s really been a super useful skill to have in the realm of automation and building software to make the lives of other people easier and just more efficient. So anyone that’s innately interested in helping people but also might like coding and problem solving, I’d recommend Python as a good place to start. It’s definitely on the easier side of things when picking up a language. I would probably avoid Rust if you’re just getting started, but Python is a pretty friendly place to get started.

(00:17:20):

When I was in grad school too, an organization I started my involvement with is The Carpentries. They’re a non-profit that helps researchers learn to code to do their jobs more easily. And so I’m still involved with them today, but that’s a really good resource I’d recommend to anyone trying to get started with maybe not the product side of coding, but research. There’s amazing resources online for web3 development like the Women Build web3. So if you’re trying to become a dev developer, check out that, but it really just depends on what you want to do. Code isn’t just this one-size-fits-all thing. Most industries probably have someone coding something for it, and whether it’s the thing that people are interacting with like the website or it’s some gnarly backend logic, or you’re just automating computers, engineering is so diverse that I think there’s no one tool I can recommend. Just try things out and see what you like because there’s going to be stuff you don’t like and that’s okay. Just chase the things you like.

Nick (00:19:41):

During your work at Esri, Alex, do you ever notice opportunities where you’re thinking, “Oh man, web3 or blockchain or The Graph or another protocol would really make an impact here? We should adopt more of this technology?”

Alex Pakalniskis (00:19:53):

Yes and no. I think that generally, location as an idea is something that I am so excited for about web3, whether that’s projects in the metaverse, whatever that is, that are incorporating a positional attribute that incorporates where you are in space and time, that’s super exciting, or how we’re tokenizing the real world. There’s a location aspect of all of that. You can’t talk about anything in the real world without talking about where it is on this rock that we’re floating on in space. And so to me, as just a geographer, that’s really exciting as an area that web3 needs to explore more. And I know that there’s projects in the realm like FOAM that are doing that. Hivemapper is another one. At Esri, I think that our customer base is very much large, large governments and large enterprises, and so I think that there’s more of a hesitancy to adopt beyond bleeding edge technology.

(00:21:00):

And so for my internal work, I don’t know that there would necessarily be immediate benefits to adopting decentralized blockchain technology, like building the internal tools to help other people. I think that there’s definitely opportunities at the intersection of the customer facing software and internal software. I don’t really do anything in that realm currently. I really focus entirely on tooling for other Esri employees. I definitely believe tokens would be a really interesting way to reconceive SaaS software credits, not just at Esri, but any place and how you could have secondary resale markets that are benefiting not only the credit purchasers, but the original software. I know that they’ve talked about that with tickets for Mark Cuban and tickets for games and to minimize the scalping thing. And I could see that as being a utility for people who maybe buy too many credits without realizing it and want to maybe mitigate losses and are able to recoup some of that cost and the main software company is able to earn a cut too.

(00:22:11):

But I don’t know. I think it’s tough. It’s a lot of people in more traditional corporate enterprise that this isn’t specific to Esri, but just from what I’ve seen looking at those kind of companies and how they’re strategizing their entry into blockchain, the public blockchain is not a tenable thing for them. The concept of a private blockchain is just for some reason more appetizing. And I think that that’s where there’s this disconnect between opportunity and what actually happens. So it’s tough. There’s huge projects in that kind of private blockchain ledger space and it attracts a very particular type of company. And I think that it also repels a very particular type of company. And the decentralized public blockchain space is… It’s exciting, but I think that once more cryptographic layers are built on top, if we can get the ZK stuff going and we can have public data that’s obfuscated from those without the right algorithm, that’ll open up some serious doors. So I’m excited for that to happen, but as long as there’s this public-private divide, I think that… I don’t know. I’m not sure what’ll happen.

Nick (00:23:39):

Well, Alex, that subtle point you made there about public versus private blockchain, that really seems in terms of how you framed it, the intersection maybe blocking wider adoption of web3 and crypto, is that some companies have a larger appetite for private blockchain. Is that the case? Is that in your mind what really will determine the future of web3 as the adoption of public blockchain?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:24:04):

I’m not sure. That’s something I want to think about more and more though, but maybe. That’s tough. I see bigger corporations taking on partnerships with Polygon, and that’s really exciting. And then I also see really big corporations taking on partnerships with private blockchain groups, and that’s exciting in a different way. And so I really don’t know. I think it’s still early to tell, to be honest. Both will exist, but I really don’t know which will become the defacto mainstream option. You know what I mean? Because Linux is there, but most people are using Windows in Mac, and so I think that it’s still too early to tell.

Nick (00:24:51):

So Alex, take us back in time then to when you first became aware of crypto. You’ve got this great education, you’ve been working in geography, you get the best of both worlds, you’re doing something fun and you’re incorporating and learning technology, and then at some point in your life you learn about crypto. When was that and what were your first impressions?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:25:07):

It was at UCLA, 2013. I was on the power lifting team. It’s like a club sport there. And one of the other team members was mining in his dorm. His name is Sam, he’s the founder of Frax Finance. He was the first time I saw any kind of, “What is this guy doing?” And it just went away after I graduated. I didn’t really reengage with it until I’d say early 2021, but I’ll always remember that rig, the mining rig with all the tubes and the pipes next to the bed. It’s like, “This is so bizarre.”

(00:25:45):

But yeah, in 2021, I guess I just got curious. I saw just tokens were doing wild things, but then the technology behind them was also really exciting and just seeing opportunities to pursue engineering and be rewarded for it in different ways. And that was just a really exciting space to allow myself to be. I know that you bring up this idea of entrepreneurship in a lot of your interviews, and I’ve never thought about myself that way. I think that in grad school, especially in disciplines that lend themselves to more radical perspectives on just the world, there’s almost this aversion to business and entrepreneurship just because so much negativity has been perpetuated by many such entrepreneurs and businesses.

(00:26:43):

And so that’s something I saw from grad students was just this default aversion to that, and I was guilty of that too. And so slowly seeing that there’s opportunities to think about entrepreneurship and business in different ways, especially because of these technologies, it previously was not really possible because of just the systems in which we inhabit and the way of the things, the order of things. And so for me, web3 decentralized blockchain is just this really cool, I guess problem space that you can build solutions to problems and iterate because I think it’s not enough to just build. You have to get feedback and reflect on did this actually solve the right problem or cause more harm than good? And I think that’s something else that, not just web3, but just as a tech community more broadly, we need to pivot and re-engage with what benefit we’re actually providing to society as opposed to just a hyper focus on profit/innovation for the sake of profit.

Nick (00:27:59):

Well, let’s talk about that. I think you’re a 100% right and it’s come up on the podcast a little bit before with other guests, but what are the benefits then? Something attracted you in 2021, you clearly identified those. What are they?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:28:11):

Yeah. To be totally frank, some of it was profit. There was awesome profit, but I think most of it was seeing that this is a technology that isn’t owned by one company or controlled or gate kept. When I heard about these open APIs that don’t just get turned off, I was shocked that this just didn’t seem like a possibility. And so for me, it’s more that it showed me that there are possibilities for different kinds of systems and that as a participant, you can actually be an active shaper of that system. It’s not just you’re relegated to, “I will plug in and exist in this matrix.” You know what I mean? Create a new matrix or don’t do that. Even better, find the matrix you’re in and try to collaborate with others to make it better for everyone.

(00:29:15):

And so I think that web3, unlike other parts of tech, not just web2, but just tech more broadly, I think web3 is very much community focused, probably out of necessity in the start, but I think that that’s persisted and there’s this really strong emphasis on building community. And I think that that needs to stay and almost deepen in the sense of the tools need to be built for the community and the technology needs to be driven by the community needs. And so I think web3, no other technology can live up to that promise. It’s just the people need to follow up on it. It’s up to us.

Nick (00:29:57):

Okay, so 2021, you get interested again in crypto, you try to find out what’s going on out there and the technology excites you, so you dig in a little deeper, what happens next? How do you find your way into getting involved and what are some of the things that you begin working on?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:30:12):

To start, I think two of the first projects that I became aware of were The Graph and Chainlink. And so from the start, I just mainly focused in those two realms. And then projects that were in the, I guess sphere of those two. In Los Angeles, there’s a nice Chainlink community. And so they put on in-person events I’d say once a quarter and it’s cool to engage. And they also bring in people from other regional hubs like Eat San Diego did a little code workshop recently, which was fun, but I think for me, I searched in person and didn’t really find that. And so I started looking online because LA has a tech community, but it’s not really a hackathon tech community. And so there’s not that same kind of culture that I saw at Graph Day where I’ve seen at ETHGlobal events.

(00:31:18):

And so I realized to get that kind of experience, I’d have to go online. It just happened that I was looking at Graph stuff and the blog post for the advocates program got posted. And so I don’t know, it just seemed right. The timing was right, man, and I applied, and the rest is really history. It’s kind of wild, but I remember even before applying to the Advocates program, just YouTube was a huge resource for me. And so just learning about web3, different projects, the different technology, just simplifying some of the really intense, “The heck is all this stuff?”

(00:32:02):

And I remember stumbling on your podcasts, and so that was definitely an onboarding into web3 and The Graph specifically, just your interviews with people across the ecosystem. So thanks for that, but just from a total full disclosure, definitely, that was an awesome gateway into just going for it.

Nick (00:32:23):

Alex, thank you so much for saying that. I’m deeply touched by that and humbled by it. Thank you very much.

Alex Pakalniskis (00:32:30):

Totally.

Nick (00:32:31):

Alex, I always want to take the opportunity when someone finds themselves into The Graph community like you just explained there, how it is that that happens because the web3 crypto protocols, it’s an ocean. There are so many different ways people could find themselves involved, and yet you stumbled upon and then stayed with two at The Graph and Chainlink. How would you explain what drew you there and kept you there?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:32:56):

I guess for me, those projects and especially The Graph really just align with my engineering interests and also broader aspirations for what software could be or tech could be. And I think that in my day-to-day job now and before, data is just super important, a unit of just knowledge of importance or of just computing. And so The Graph is very much this data-centric protocol. And so I immediately just vibed with my personal curiosities, and then seeing that it’s open and it’s all just open source, open data, that really jived with my just aspirations for a builder community that’s really collaborative and open.

(00:33:46):

And so I just saw this as a really cool opportunity to meet others that are into similar things. And I wasn’t disappointed, but I think that just having aligned values with the project is really what kept me here. It’s cool to see applied use cases, but I think I really nerd out on data and it’s been fun. So I think if you like data, The Graph is an amazing project to check out as an onboarding into web3. Not even that, just open source. I think if you’re someone who’s curious about open data and just technology, The Graph is just a really amazing ecosystem of engineers, creators that you should check out. Not limiting the audience to those in the know.

(00:34:42):

I think that’s something that as a community, and now I’m speaking specifically about web3 community, we really need to get better about talking to those that maybe don’t even realize what web3 is and seeing where we overlap and where we don’t, and have that fun conversation. I think that so much of this technology is really interesting, but people are offput for whatever reason. And so meeting them halfway, whatever that is just I think is really important. And I think that’ll help us get to mainstream broad adoption faster than any code optimization. It’s really socializing this technology and getting people to see that it’s people like us and not just nameless machines running it. At the end of the day, this is all still people driven, this technology, this community. There’s people running the computers for the distributed blockchain. Without the people, none of it would work. And so I think if you can somehow drive that home and see how this is a much more community based technology than anything humanity has ever known, that can hopefully encourage people to give it a second look.

Nick (00:35:57):

When you say we need to do a better job socializing web3 and what it means, the people behind it, getting started there would require maybe a better explanation of what web3 is and how it impacts people? How would you get that conversation started, what web3 is and why it’s important?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:36:18):

Yeah. No, the almighty question. I had this conversation recently with a friend that is a technical writer, and I’m trying to get them more into web3 and seeing opportunities in that space. And yeah, I’d say for me, web3, I like to use the analogy of a Wikipedia for everything in a way, but with a vending machine component. And that’s an awkward hybrid, but when you try to get too deep, I see a lot of people glaze over in terms of the tech. And so I guess a community run internet with no owner. Wikipedia, I don’t know what the actual corporate structure of it, but it always seemed like this open ownerless entity that I think the web3, what separates it from web2, and that’s not a good way to define anything, but web3 is this ownerless technology that enables people to communicate and interact with each other with less control by others.

(00:37:33):

It’s an internet that’s more free for people to use and not be monitored and monetized. I think web2 very much is optimized to monetize us where web3 is not particularly interested in that, at least the decentralized fund projects that I try to pay attention to. I think it’s about building value for the users and of course for the projects, but not trying to profit with the total disregard for just exploiting users.

Nick (00:38:17):

So going back to Graph Advocates, Alex, you mentioned you read the blog post, you decided to apply, and once you got in, you got really in, you got super involved. And for listeners that don’t know, I’ve had other Advocates on the podcast before. They’ve talked about the six different roles that someone can choose from when they apply, there’s event evangelist, text translators, and in your case, you’re a technical teacher. And one of the reasons I wanted to speak with you is in your role as a Graph Advocate, you become very active in teaching coding. You’ve had courses or lessons for different members of the Advocates community where they can come in and learn different things.

(00:38:54):

Talk to us a little bit about what you’ve done there and for listeners that want to find out more about this, how they can go out and see some of this?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:39:01):

Yeah. No, thanks for asking. It kind of started out as an accident. I think that it was just some technical teachers hanging out, and we were just in a shared Discord chat and we’re working together on, I think, subgraph documentation, and I pulled up a screen share so others could watch, and then something clicked there like, “Oh, people will hang out and just watch me code and we can learn together.” And it’s not really like I’m teaching, but we’re still learning and it’s fun. And so it is just this different kind of… I didn’t know what to call it. And so I guess I was like, okay, “Code Along With Alex.” And so I just started scheduling these events and working on different tasks and slowly narrowing in on some topics that were relevant to the broader guess Graph protocol ecosystem, but not too deep so that only web3 people would care.

(00:40:00):

And so I try to pick topics that are at the intersection of mainstream usage and web3, The Graph usage, and so stuff like Rust, Kubernetes, a little bit of Julia, and just general problem solving have been the main topics we’ve covered so far. We started in late August 2020, and we’ve been going strong ever since. I’m excited to see what comes next, but it’s been a really fun experience where I’ve learned a lot prepping for sessions, trying to get ahead of students. Also, just out of the curiosity, my own curiosity, this has been a really good way to structure learning. I feel like I’ve never ingested so much information and retained it in such a way with such low stress just because I’m setting aside time to host these events and make videos that I’ve really just benefited from it personally in my own growth as an engineer.

(00:41:04):

So I think it’s been really amazing. More than that too, just connecting with people in the community. I’ve made some friends from the attendees that I still chat with regularly, even if they’re not attending the sessions, just because we made connections. And for me, that’s the most important part. And why I try to do not just Code Along With Alex, but experiment with these kind of virtual community building sessions. I know not everyone’s a coder, so Code Along With Alex can be for those people, but just trying to connect and make friendships because we’re people and this protocol is run by people, and we can’t just do tasks like robots. We got to connect and relate and laugh. And so Code Along With Alex has been a lot of laughs and not too many error codes, so that’s good.

Nick (00:41:58):

Can listeners find some of these sessions and how can they join them if they want to Code Along With Alex?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:42:04):

Yeah, so all sessions are posted to The Graph Advocates community calendar and are in our Discord events section. And then I post all recordings to my YouTube channel, but it’s just youtube.com/@alexpakalniskis.

Nick (00:42:19):

And I’ll put all the links in the show notes. So for any listeners that want to learn more about these sessions and get involved, take advantage of this really great opportunity. You can find links in the show notes, and I encourage you to check it out. Alex, shortly after then becoming a Graph Advocate, you also go into Graph AdvocatesDAO. DAOs are something new. What’s been your experience working in AdvocatesDAO, some of the things you’ve learned about The Graph and the community?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:42:46):

So to start, I was predominantly in the ops committee, and more recently I’ve been contributing to the Advocate committee. So I’d say I can speak on it from two different perspectives. In the ops, it’s very much focused on configuring some software or setting up something or doing some R&D to set up some integration for the DAO so that work is done more easily, similar to what I do in my day job. One of the projects that is actively being worked on is integrating live peer with our website so we can do streaming in a decentralized way. So I’m working on that with Dylan, who’s another Advocate, but in the Advocate committee, I’m mainly focusing on interviewing perspective Advocates. And so for me, that’s been really fun to see the types of people applying and I ask them about their motivations and why they want to contribute because I think that as Advocates, we’re really contribution focused and trying to build things and make content and teach people.

(00:43:56):

And so I try to just get a sense for why people are motivated to do what they do. And it’s really exciting to hear that generally everyone that I’ve interviewed just wants to learn more and share the knowledge that they have with others and just do that through the different roles. At the end of the day, we’re just trying to help others learn more about this cool stuff that we’re involved with. We just do it in different ways. And so I think it’s really exciting to learn more about how people across the world are planning to spread information about web3 with their communities. I’ve interviewed people from North America, from Central Africa. It’s been really cool to see the similarities. It’s really cool.

Nick (00:44:48):

So how do you find the time for all of this? You’ve already mentioned you’re full-time employed, you’re a Graph Advocate, you’re doing Code Along With Alex, along with other learning sessions for members of the Advocate community, and here you are, you’re active in two committees within AdvocatesDAO. Talk to us about time management and how you’re able to do all this?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:45:06):

Yeah, so I’d say that 2022 has been the year of time management for me. I’ve gotten in my stride of just knowing how to do it. I live in Google Calendar for my various scheduled events. I really try to be vigilant about if something pops up in my work calendar, I’ll move over a placeholder in my personal calendar so I don’t forget accidentally. And it’s tedious the first week and then you just get used to it just because I don’t want to sink everything for privacy. I also have a personal to-do list, which I treat like a project board for a team at a company. And so almost like taking a scrum approach and having tasks for everything and statuses and priorities has been really helpful for me.

(00:46:00):

It’s overkill for many, but I’ve heard great things from people who’ve switched from a pen and paper approach after they’ve heard my strategy. And I just use GitHub Issues, it’s awesome. I’m already in GitHub for work and most side projects, so it’s just where I am anyway, and I just treat my life like a project and it really works out and I know when to tune out, turn off the screen and it’s great. I haven’t missed a meeting in a long time. I think it’s worth the initial setup.

Nick (00:46:38):

Is there a Code Along With Alex GitHub session on how to create a to-do list for those that want to manage their time better?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:46:45):

Coming soon, yes. In December 2022.

Nick (00:46:49):

In addition to everything else you’re working on, Alex, one thing I’ve noticed in following you on Twitter is you have this garden that you’re also growing, what looks like chilies and different things like that. What’s going on there? What are you growing in your garden?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:47:02):

Yeah, right now I am mainly growing bhut jolokia, also known as ghost pepper, and then a couple chilies, some habaneros, some things called black cobra chilies. I didn’t plan on becoming a hot pepper guy, it just happened accidentally. I was gifted some peppers that no one realized were incredibly spicy and for some reason they thrived. And so it’s just grown from there. I was growing tomatoes too and some other vegetables, but I had a lot of pests and so the only thing that would survive was just these wildly hot peppers. And so now I have way too many ghost peppers and so I’ve started looking into pickling and just different means of preserving them because my freezer is starting to get full of ghost peppers. I’m running out of space and I don’t know anyone that wants them. So if you know anyone who wants ghost peppers, let me know.

Nick (00:48:31):

What do you say to listeners who hear your story? You’re an incredibly thoughtful guy. You think deeply about a lot of the topics we’ve talked about here today. They want to get involved as well. They’ve got the vision, the same conviction that you have, but they have a full-time job. And the idea of becoming an Advocate, the idea of joining at DAO, it’s overwhelming, especially when they may want to start learning how to code and some of these other things. So what’s your advice to them?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:48:56):

I’d say do a little research and try to find some people in the community, whatever community that is for you, that seem like they have a decent reputation and aren’t trying to sell you anything. Nothing wrong with being sold something, but I think that people that are generally educating for free and just trying to help people, lift people up are a good place to start. Beyond that, I’d say just go for it and try things out. I think that contributions aren’t one-size-fits-all, and just because you have 15 minutes a day shouldn’t dissuade you from trying to help out even less. I think that joining a Discord server and trying to see if there’s questions you might be able to answer, that’s an amazing first step. If you have asked questions before, you probably have an answer for another newcomer. So I think that that’s an amazing contribution that many even seasoned community members overlook, is the just simple Discord Q&A.

(00:50:06):

Beyond that, not sure about the longevity of Twitter, but finding people that follow there and reaching out. I think generally speaking, people are very open and kind in web3, and will get back to you. I know on Discord, you might not hear back immediately because of privacy settings to avoid bots, but I know a lot of people will get back to you on Twitter and just be respectful of their time, but if you just have a question that you think that they’re well positioned to answer, just go for it. I think that in my experience, people are very kind and welcoming in web3 and just want others to get curious.

(00:50:52):

And so even if you can’t spend eight hours a day dedicated to this, that’s totally fine. Any little bit counts. And so really just starting however you think you can is the best first step you can take. And then when you’re lost, reach out to the community and more likely than not, someone will have 20 great ideas for you to take on because there’s so much work to be done and rarely enough people. So just be around a community for a little bit and soon enough you’ll find some work.

Nick (00:51:29):

2022 was an incredible year for the crypto industry, both negative and positive. As we end out the year, and I look back on the announcements that came specific from The Graph community, I’m thinking about Graph Day and all the things that happened there, but of course the MIPS program was an incredibly cool announcement. You Alex joined a group called IndexerDAO shortly after the MIPS program was announced. What can you share with listeners about IndexerDAO and what’s going on there?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:52:00):

Yeah, so we’re an Indexer for MIPS, but more than that, we’re also a DAO to support aspiring and active Indexers with ongoing education and project-based learning opportunities. We’ve had a couple of workshops already and we have a few planned for the coming months. Besides that, we also support the indexing space by testing R&D efforts from core developers. Lately I’ve been diving into Launchpad from GraphOps and giving them, I guess, user feedback as I’ve been setting up a Launchpad based Indexer on the side from our main one.

(00:52:37):

And so I guess our main goals are really to create a community for Indexers to learn from each other and with each other, and help those interested in indexing get started and potentially learn from those with some good experience.

Nick (00:52:54):

How big is the DAO now? How many members are there of IndexerDAO?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:52:58):

I think right now we’re around five, but we’re definitely looking to grow. So if you wanted to get involved, reach out to us on Twitter or join our Discord and we’re happy to chat with you and discuss opportunities.

Nick (00:53:13):

I’ll put those links in the show notes. I want to ask you just a couple of more questions before I ask you the GRTiQ 10, and the one question I want to ask is about what you’ve learned by virtue of joining IndexerDAO and getting involved in MIPS? How has that informed your understanding of The Graph and what it does for web3?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:53:34):

I didn’t realize how much there was to learn. I knew that there was a lot of technical expertise required, broad technical expertise too, but also the domain specific knowledge. I guess I didn’t calculate that correctly. And so for me, the importance of teamwork and having a support network and community that you can lean into and help in return has been the main lesson. Yeah, of course I learned so much when it comes to technical stuff and domain information about The Graph. But I think just reinforcing how important it is to have your team, not a literal team, but your friends, your homies that you can ask questions and struggle with and reach out to when you’re running into error messages and you’re not sure what to do. And so for me, just the importance of community has definitely been emphasized during MIPS and in my brief time as an Indexer.

Nick (00:54:36):

Alex, what’s your vision for the future of The Graph? How important it is for web3 and the type of thing it can accomplish in the world?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:54:44):

I view the future of The Graph as continuing as a foundational layer in the web3 stack or whatever it’s called in the future by those in charge of naming things. But I think it’s still too early to tell, and that’s the lame answer I know, but I’m really excited for applications and use cases that are intersecting with the tangible reality that you and I can touch. And so I still think we’re early to that. There’s amazing use cases right now, but a lot of them are more, I guess, reproducing existing technologies with a different kind of backend. I’m excited for the future where there’s technologies we’ve never had or immersive experiences and ways of communicating with others that have never existed before.

(00:55:39):

I think The Graph will definitely power those kind of technologies because that kind of interconnection isn’t going to be possible with proprietary closed, centralized systems. It has to be an interoperable, decentralized network that data can communicate freely and flow across systems. And so for me, I don’t see anything in the future yet just because it’s too far, it’s too hazy, but I know The Graph will be somewhere there just powering the plumbing of where data’s moving around. Just because I don’t see any other alternative to this decentralized data layer in a future internet.

Nick (00:56:21):

Are you optimistic about the future of web3 in crypto?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:56:25):

Yes and no. It depends, you know what I mean? Some days I’m more optimistic that we’ll overcome what we keep reproducing are just the rebuilding systems of oppression or tools of distraction as opposed to tools of liberation or improving the human experience. Some days I’m more pessimistic that that’s not attainable. So I don’t know. I think that web3 is dependent on broader social changes that need to happen, like conversations and cultural shifts. I don’t know that web3 can succeed in this kind of solar punk utopian vision until humanity or those in power are reevaluating how we treat each other and how technology plays a part in that.

(00:57:27):

I’m hopeful that we can have that conversation and improve, but we’re not there yet either. And so I think that web3 will power that conversation once it happens. I’m saying once very hopefully, but I really want that conversation to happen. But I think that that’s a prerequisite for this Epic web3 future that many of us really, really want. We need to have some uncomfortable conversations for a while before the technology can flourish like it should.

Nick (00:58:04):

As someone with such a diverse background, starting off in music, going into biochem, ending up in geography, and some of the cool things that you’re working on now during your day job, my question is about moving into web3. One of the ethos of web3 is that everybody’s welcome and just bring the tools and the skills that you have, and there’s a way to put those things to use. Has that been true for you? If you look back on your life and all the different skills you’ve acquired in these different disciplines, are you applying them or at least using them in the things you do in web3?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:58:38):

A 100% and more. Or just I guess the skill of being willing and able to learn. I think that’s been super valuable in web3. I picked up some really basic graphic design recently to help promote some of my videos and not something I ever expected or learned in any class, but my automation skills and domain experience have been super valuable in web3 and just simplifying life building bots to monitor things. Yeah, I’d say that it was in no way a bad thing to take the life experience to web3. If anything, the more varied and different your experience, the better because you’ll be able to compliment teams that don’t have your beautiful, unique skills.

Nick (00:59:29):

And the last question I want to ask you is about something you said when I talked to you about time management and you said you use GitHub and you run your life a little bit like a project. My question is, if your life is a little bit of a project, what are you trying to build here? What is the best outcome for the things you’re working on?

Alex Pakalniskis (00:59:48):

Damn, getting deep. I hope that this project doesn’t have an end date for a while and it’s more of an iterative end goal, but I guess my personal project, I’ll interpret it that primarily to start, just building myself and in a way that lifts the community simultaneously and just building value for all of us, shared value. That’s I’d say the longer term vision for my project work. I’m not really sure how that plays out yet, but I see things like Code Along With Alex and community building as contributing to that, but yeah, I want to build value for myself and the community so that we can work together on bigger things than we could in isolation because this ties back in with the IndexerDAO stuff and just needing the community. You can’t know everything.

(01:00:51):

And so we need help being able to reach out, ask for help, and then when you know something that others don’t, being able to share that wisdom, I think that’s super important. And that’s something that I hope to exemplify as a side effect of my project board, is to really become a resource for the community that people can connect with and hopefully get them oriented on where to go next or who to reach out to next because I can’t know everything either, but I can know people who might.

Nick (01:01:22):

So Alex, now we’ve reached a point in the podcast where I’m going to ask you the GRTiQ 10. These are 10 questions I ask each guest of the podcast every week to help listeners learn something new, try something different, or achieve more. So are you ready for the GRTiQ 10?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:01:36):

Let’s do it.

Nick (01:01:47):

What book or article has had the most impact on your life?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:01:51):

In high school, I’d say Brave New World, but then in grad school, reading Foucault, just that messed with my mind in a good way.

Nick (01:02:00):

Is there a movie or a TV show that you would recommend everybody should watch?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:02:05):

Honestly, not really. It’s so subjective in my opinion that I think you should just pursue what brings you joy or evokes some kind of emotion in you. And yeah, I would approve.

Nick (01:02:19):

If you could only listen to one music album for the rest of your life, which one would you choose?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:02:24):

I have a stronger opinion about music. I’m a musician, so maybe if I was a filmmaker, I’d have a stronger opinion. Deftones, Saturday Night Wrist. Very good vibes.

Nick (01:02:35):

What’s the best advice someone’s ever given to you?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:02:38):

This is from a high school friend named Ricky Darling. And yes, that is his legal birth given last name, “Go for it.” I feel like those three words are so important and undervalued. Just go for it and you’d be very surprised what happens.

Nick (01:02:54):

What’s one thing you’ve learned in your life that you don’t think most other people know or have learned yet?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:03:00):

How to collect data with a drone. I think that’s a pretty niche skill.

Nick (01:03:05):

What’s the best life hack you’ve discovered for yourself?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:03:09):

This really ties into the treating my to-do list, like a project board. I didn’t realize how much it would change things, but it really did. It’s reduced the amount of stress in my life because I don’t feel like I have to remember something. It’s just there. I can go look and it’s not like it’s going to get lost. So for me, that was like a revolutionary change of how I just get things done.

Nick (01:03:33):

Based on your own life experience or observations, what’s the one habit or characteristic that you think best explains how people find success in life?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:03:43):

It’s a tie between persistence and self-awareness. I think you knew that blend. Otherwise, if you have too much of either one, you’ll just get stuck.

Nick (01:03:56):

And then the final three, Alex, are complete the sentence type questions. So the first one is, the thing that most excites me about web3 is…?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:04:03):

Building community and seeing the other person’s face when they have the light bulb moment about decentralization.

Nick (01:04:10):

And the next one, if you’re on Twitter, then you should be following…?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:04:13):

GRTiQ to stay up to date on new episodes. But also, just anything that makes you smile. I feel like a lot of Twitter is really dark and just depressing and kind of full of decay, like just balance it out with some puppies or something. I think life is about balance, so mix it up.

Nick (01:04:33):

And lastly, Alex, complete the sentence, I’m happiest when…?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:04:37):

I’m in the zone, coding, cooking, or jamming.

Nick (01:04:50):

Alex, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been super gracious and I’ve learned so much about you and your story, and it’s incredible to see all the things you’re doing as a Graph Advocate and now in Index or DAO. If listeners want to follow you, stay in touch with the things you’re working on, what’s the best way to do it?

Alex Pakalniskis (01:05:08):

Yeah, you can follow me on Twitter or LinkedIn and then definitely follow my YouTube channel to stay up to date with Code Along With Alex content and those will be linked in the show notes.