GRTiQ Podcast: 85 Tachi

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Tachi (00:00:19):

Because the graph is indexing all of that complex data, it’s organizing it. It’s creating new models with that data, and then for sure today, it’s just providing you with an API to query that data but the next few years, who knows what we’re going to be doing with the graph as the back end. I firmly believe that the graph is just scratching the surface and this is why Playgrounds is building on top of it.

Nick (00:00:43):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today I’m speaking with Tachi, co-founder and CEO at Playgrounds Analytics, a data solutions platform built upon the graph that provides serverless on-chain data infrastructures and services for data teams, analysts and engineers. This is a remarkable conversation for several reasons. First, Tachi’s perspective as a control systems engineer provides unique insights when we talk about The Graph, blockchain and web3. Additionally, Tachi’s professional background in nuclear energy and the space industry is super interesting. During our conversation, we have a lot of fun and we talk about Tachi’s background, including some discussion of clean energy in the crypto industry, space exploration and UFOs, and then we talk about The Graph and web3. And I think Tachi’s descriptions of the blockchain ecosystem and The Graph are some of the best you’ll hear. As always, we started by talking about Tachi’s educational background.

Tachi (00:02:18):

I am formerly trained in mechanical engineering with a specialization in control systems engineering, and I also have a long history in research, specifically engineering research. Throughout my college career, I devoted my time and energy in research where I studied and developed sensors and electromechanical systems for the measurement and control of electrochemical reactions in low temperature environments. And by low temperature environments, I mean environments where the highest temperature is at 77K and we’re really dealing with anything below that level. So, that was my regime. And the focus of the research was to develop systems and environments to trigger electrochemical reactions and measure the heat fluxes, or heat generated in those low temperatures with the objective of figuring out the maximum loading of palladium with hydrogen or its isotopes, and also figuring out trigger mechanisms to generate sustained heat production within those cells.

Nick (00:03:23):

So this is a highly technical degree with a lot of science, hardcore science I should say. Can you give us some examples, and you alluded to there a little bit of what a control system might be, how listeners that aren’t familiar with this might interact with one on a daily basis?

Tachi (00:03:39):

Yeah, of course. So a control system is best described as a collection or a system of elements, or individual electromechanical components that manages, regulates or controls the behaviors of other systems or environments to achieve a desired result. So generally this control is accomplished through the use of automated cycles or loops, which are designed to maintain a variable, or a combination of variables, at a desired set point. A really good example is your home’s thermostat. You have your AC or your heater, and let’s say you come home and you want your home to be a nice toasty 70 degrees at all times. Your HVAC system, which is short form for heating, ventilation and air conditioning, essentially is your home’s control system. It’s made up of components that work together to keep the home at your desired temperature. So the purpose of your HVAC is to move air in the inside and the outside of your home and maintain, let’s say, your 70 degrees desired temperature.

(00:04:45):

And the way it works is quite simple. You would have a sensor that’s placed by your thermostat where you type in the temperature that you want, and basically what it does is it measures the gradient, it measures the average temperatures and says, “Okay, the user wants my temperature at 70. If the temperature is above that, it means it’s too hot.” So it turns on the AC, and then lot of subsystems basically activate, there’s a lot of heat exchange going on and it drops the temperature down at 70 or a little bit below. If the temperature is below 70, it can do one of two things. Either it turns off the AC or turns on the heater to raise the temperature back to the set point. So that system is made up of smaller subsystems to control your desired output. And every aspect of our lives, no matter what you do or where you are, control systems engineering is involved in one form or the other.

Nick (00:05:37):

Well Tachi, thank you for that explanation. That example is super helpful for me trying to understand exactly where we encounter these things. And I think you’re a GRTiQ Podcast first. I don’t think I’ve had a mechanical engineering with a specialization in control systems engineering, so super excited to explore more about that and how you apply it in the crypto space. But before we get there, I’d be curious to know what you did following your education there. So what did you do professionally and how did you apply this education?

Tachi (00:06:05):

So I’ve had quite an interesting career. I started out in the nuclear energy research where I helped develop control systems and calorimeters to measure some milliwatt resolution heat fluxes in these reactors, or we call them cells. And what happens is you load it up with your hydrogen or deuterium isotopes and then you trigger it and measure how much energy you’re producing, and can you do it over and over again? So I started my career in that research field and I did that for a few years, and after which I made a significant pivot into the space industry where I helped develop spacecraft and spacecraft instruments to find and detect water on the far side of the moon.

(00:06:47):

So I worked on things like mass specs, infrared instruments, Raman spectrographs … You name it. As long as it fits on a spacecraft, it allows you to measure those ultraviolet reflections that happens when water is present on that surface. So that’s what I did for a number of years after making a pivot from the nuclear engineering field.

Nick (00:07:07):

This is all incredibly interesting, moving into nuclear energy and then into the space industry and eventually web3. So got some follow up questions for you as it pertains to your professional background. Nuclear energy is one of these very interesting things and again, I know you had a very specific role, but did you ever give much thought to some of the debate that exists out there in the public as it relates to nuclear energy? Is it really the right ambition for us to pursue and use nuclear energy? Or are you somebody that comes on the other side of that argument?

Tachi (00:07:41):

That’s a great question. I am a strong advocate for the research and development of sustainable energy, specifically in nuclear energy, and I spent the early part of my career in a private research company studying trigger mechanisms for these fusions. And during my time there I worked with a lot of brilliant engineers, physicists and chemists in a pursuit of engineering small scale fusion reactions and trying to determine ways to make it repeatable and reliable and safe. So we worked with loading cells with deuterium, which basically is an isotope of hydrogen, and you pack it up into your cell, try to trigger the reaction and see if you can do that in a sustainable way that can be used to benefit the world, people in our community. We’re not the first to try this, we’re certainly not the last. There will be many more people who will be trying to pursue this noble endeavor.

(00:08:35):

But the reason I do that, or the reason I did that was because I truly do believe that a breakthrough in clean energy is necessary to protect our planet. Our planet is dying and we are not doing a really great job when it comes to climate change and the overall reliance on fossil fuels, which is a major generator of greenhouse gas emissions. So we are in desperate need for a breakthrough in clean energy sourcing, and we urgently need to limit the impact, or our impact when it comes to climate change. And to do so, I personally believe that we need to make a pivot into the nuclear energy pathway. So I’d say big advocate.

Nick (00:09:18):

So Tachi, I’m not 100% at the forefront here in knowing about how Bitcoin miners and other participants in the crypto industry impact the climate, but I have seen on occasion articles on this topic and I’m curious if you’ve ever connected the dots here in the sense that maybe clean energy or nuclear energy being paired with the way this industry works might create a win-win solution where we’re using clean energy and we’re lessening the impact, at least the impact that’s being projected onto this industry as a whole.

Tachi (00:09:52):

Well, yeah, there are some dots to connect. I do know there’s some reading articles out there on this pivot on miners who want to use green or sustainable energy as a way to power up their mining rigs. Would that be better if they’re using something like nuclear energy, for example? Possibly. I mean, you can see examples of people trying to use solar as a way to power their mining rig. So, there is a marriage. I think the main point is that we need to push forward for addressing all possible energy sourcing as long as it’s clean. Then we can truly see the benefits of what we’re building in this space, the blockchain space, whether you have a mining rig or maybe you want to move from proof of work to proof of stake. It doesn’t matter. As long as we are sourcing our energy from something that’s not fossil fuel based, I’m happy. I’m an advocate for that.

Nick (00:10:45):

So after working on nuclear energy and some of the things you described there, you moved into the space industry and instrumentation to test for water. Why is finding water so important and how did exactly did this instrumentation work?

Tachi (00:10:59):

Okay, that’s a really good question. There are plans. Many people might not know this. There are plans for the revitalization of exploration. We need astronauts to go back out there and explore the future of mankind is proliferating the many planets that are out there. But to do that, we need to make sure that we can survive. We can’t necessarily carry a lot of the resources we need to survive, to create a colony, to create a research base on another planet, or the moon for example. So the question is, well, how can we source the materials that are available on those planets? To do so, you have to first of all find the fundamental element that you need is water. You need the tools to find water so the astronauts and the explorers can then source it and then dig for water if it’s there.

(00:11:47):

So, that that’s the main objective of can you build the tools to help astronauts or explorers find water? And that was the main objective. So let’s do that. Well, how can you do that? Well, it turns out that when water interacts with the surface of the moon, or a regolith for example, and light bounces on it, it has very unique reflective properties. We call this the far-ultraviolet reflective properties of the regolith. When you measure the spectra, you’re able to tell the difference in where water might be and where there is absolutely no water. So you want to then build an instrument in a miniaturized form that an astronaut can probably handhold or carry in his backpack and then scan the surrounding when they get there and say, “Oh, yep. This matches the spectra. It means that there’s a high chance of probability that there’s going to be water if we dig versus this other side so we don’t have to waste our time.” So creating these tools might not help us today, but they will help future explorers and astronauts when they go back to the moon.

Nick (00:12:44):

Well, there’s a couple hot topics happening in the news and the United States right now. So for our international listeners, they may or may not know about this, but number one is there seems to be a renewed interest in going to the moon, which is a little bit of a head scratcher for a lot of people. We’ve been there, we’ve done that. Right? I know there’s people out there that have conspiracy theories that we never actually went, but presuming that we did, it does seem odd that there’s this renewed interest in going back to the moon. So I’d be curious about your ideas about that. And of course, the second one is all this activity in Congress and in social media related to UFOs and taking a closer look at the UFOs. So are these things you think about? Do you have interest in any of this stuff?

Tachi (00:13:26):

Well, first of all, I’ll answer the reemergence of the space industry, which I think is quite interesting in it. It’s very exciting because for the first time I’m able to check the news and see what SpaceX and Virgin Galactic are doing when it comes to the space industry. And I do believe that it’s not just me personally, but it gives me and other builders in the space industry hope that there’s still a curiosity on our place in the universe. Why are we here? What are we supposed to be doing here? We are all still dreamers, and that dream has never died. It might’ve seemed like it did for a short minute there, but it’s still alive. And, it reminds me of … One of my great inspirations was Carl Sagan. I watched him and watched Cosmos growing up when I was a kid.

(00:14:16):

And a quote that he famously said was, “Our feeblest contemplations of the cosmos stirs us. There is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation as if a distant memory of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the great mysteries.” And what that really makes me feel is finally we are reawakening ourselves to explore these great mysteries of the universe, to explore those questions that we always wonder when we stare up in the stars and wonder why. And that’s why I’m super excited about the reemergence, the revitalization of the space industry.

(00:14:57):

Now when it comes to UFOs, I don’t buy into conspiracies specifically. However, I do think it’s a bit arrogant to believe that in the vastness of our universe, we are the only intelligent life in existence. Statistically speaking, it’s highly improbable that earth is the only planet with life on it. But that doesn’t mean I believe in UFOs flying spaceships on the planet. That’s just how I see it.

Nick (00:15:28):

Yeah, understood. And of course, another major headline as it relates to some of these types of topics is the James Webb Telescope, which is starting to shoot back some incredible images. And again, drawing on your background here, when you look at that, it must reaffirm some of the things you just said there about there’s no way we’re alone, but in addition, there’s a lot more exploration to take place.

Tachi (00:15:47):

Yeah, absolutely. When I started seeing the first images pouring in, the difference in quality, the difference in colors, it moves me every time because I am a dreamer. This is why I joined this field. It’s to explore, and seeing those images is just so inspiring and gives me hope that the future is exciting. We should explore it.

Nick (00:16:12):

Well, speaking of exploring and trying new things, it seems to me that you were well on a pretty clear career trajectory there. You had great education, very specific focused. You were putting it to work. At some point here, however, you decided to move into crypto and web3. So what’s the backstory there?

Tachi (00:16:33):

I’m just crazy. Well, the backstory is I would say I’m obsessed. It starts with my internal drive. I’m obsessed with solving really complicated problems. I’m obsessed with doing things that are meaningful not just to me or my local community, but the world on the global scale. I want to do something that matters, and that’s what drove me into exploring web3 and blockchain because I do believe that the future is web3. The future will be powered by blockchain in one form or the other. Everyone’s lives will be touched by it. But we’re not there yet.

(00:17:11):

That vision I have on what the future will look like is still so far away, but I can’t sit and wait for that future to come to us. I want to participate in building that future and building the bridge to get us there, which is why I had the conviction to jump into this new industry and apply my engineering background in any way I can to help us get there. I’m not the only one. There’s many, many, many engineers and builders, but I want to join my friends and join my colleagues in building that future we all envision together.

Nick (00:17:42):

So when did you first become aware of crypto and what were some of those first impressions?

Tachi (00:17:47):

Oh, gosh. 2016, 2017. I had a Binance account, buying Bitcoin, XRP, EVE, all of the coins, most of which are no longer with us today sadly. But that’s when I got exposed to cryptocurrencies. But I couldn’t really jump in headfirst. I was really focused on my research. There was a lot of exciting work I was doing in the nuclear engineering field and I wanted to dedicate my energy into that. I was really busy. So I dabbled around, read a few papers here and there, and it just disappeared out of my mind for a while. And then in 2020, I read a publication by Chainlink, Sergey Nazarov, and that sparked my interest. What is the Chainlink and Oracle system that this guy’s talking about? What does he mean by truths, definitive truths? What are you talking about? And, that’s what really reignited my interest in this space fully.

(00:18:47):

And I was fully immersed in the Link Marine culture, the subculture on Crypto Twitter. And Sergey Nazarov is such an incredible communicator and he does a great job in explaining the future of web3, the impact of definitive truths and that’s when I really drunk the web3 Kool-Aid. And throughout my journey in studying Chainlink and smart contracts, I learned the importance of all of this and how we can use blockchain to create these truths and guarantees on transactions and ownerships and contracts, estates and the power of Oracles and how they can bridge the off-chain world to the on-chain world. And of course, DeFi. All of that was just so powerful and so impactful in how I saw the future, and I just couldn’t turn back after that.

Nick (00:19:35):

So as a one-time mechanical engineer working on problems in the nuclear energy space, I know what the impact on the world there is, and you mentioned you’re driven by working on hard problems that you know will have an impact on the world. So in the context of nuclear energy, it’s clean energy, it’s a better environment, and maybe it gives this planet more runway to survive. When it comes to your next move into space industry, I also got a glimpse of the impact there. It’s exploration, and maybe over time this human species leaving this planet and going into other places. But then as we talk about web3 then, what’s the impact here? What’s the impact on humanity? What’s the problem that if this is solved, leaves the world in a better place?

Tachi (00:20:22):

The short form answer, it levels the playing field and creates an equal opportunity for everyone, no matter your background, where you are on the planet, who you are, who your history is. Equal opportunity level playing field. Now, long form answer, of course, this can be very philosophical if you want to, but we live in a very highly social civilization, and every aspect of our lives relies heavily on contractual agreements between ourselves, between our neighbors, our communities, our governments, businesses, service providers. Everything is based on some form of agreement or contract, whether it’s formal or informal. And these structures are the fuel that drives our lives, drives society, and drives the progression of humankind forward. So when you form the contract, for example, with the government, you pay your taxes and in exchange you get protection of life, liberties, freedoms, whatever. You name it. That’s the contractual agreement between yourself and the government.

(00:21:24):

When you do that with your job, you make a contract, I will show up from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM. I will dedicate my energy, time, creativity, and resources to develop, I don’t know, a piece of software to do something that will benefit some community. In exchange, I will get money or I will get recognition. Or if you’re a researcher, I will get publications in the paper. So without these structures in place, there will be no progress. Society will essentially collapse because we’re built on these structures. Everything will ground to a halt. I think this is the key to understanding and believing first and foremost the importance of web3 and DeFi in general. When you ask me why I would move to web3 or why I would make this pivot, well, because the status quo today is failing. Failing hard, actually.

(00:22:16):

These structures are unreliable and they don’t serve everyone fairly. They don’t serve everyone equally. And the field is completely irregular, and it favors the massively wealthy and favors the massively powerful members of our societies. They can scale these contracts and agreements to benefit themselves and leave the less fortunate at the mercy of the failing system itself. So you find yourself having hope and praying that these agreements will work when you need them to.

(00:22:45):

Well, blockchain tech and web3 in general changes this entire paradigm because suddenly you’re leveraging cryptographic guarantees, permission-less open, decentralized systems that guarantees that when you need a system to work for you, it will work. There’s no counterparty risk. There’s no risk involved. It’s all there for you to see. You can read and audit the code or the blockchain before you actually enter an agreement and it’s guaranteed mathematically that it will work all the time. And, this is why I’m really excited about it because it’s a new paradigm in how we can interact with each other, and because of that, the world is at the precipice of change. There’s a big new era that we’re just at the forefront of. That’s why I changed.

Nick (00:24:55):

So Tachi, I’d like then to use that control systems education and professional perspective that you have. I want to apply it then to the space we’re talking about today, which is this relationship between blockchain, crypto and then web3. And, I’ve asked this question before on the podcast, how people think about the interplay of these things, but never had the opportunity to talk to somebody who’s built control systems and probably has a unique perspective on how these things fit together and support each other, so I’d be curious on your thoughts on this. Is this something you’ve thought about?

Tachi (00:25:29):

Yeah. Looking at this from an engineering perspective, I think it’s best to look back in history. It’s funny, people laugh, but engineering is you’re really just historians. We apply history to create new systems to make the future better. So let’s take a step back from web3 and start Web1, the very first instance of the internet. And, that revolutionized information transfer. So you have a server and the server contains data, and that data is read on the client end, phone, computer, whatever. Then came web2, which revolutionized interactions. So suddenly you’re leveraging Web1 and you’re able to interact with other clients, other users, each other, and that’s why Facebook and Instagram and YouTube are very popular. It’s creation of interactions on the internet. With web2 came the advent of these interactions on a global scale where you have producers and consumers of information, goods, services working closely with each other, but the problem is all of that data, all of those interactions are then encapsulated in a black box.

(00:26:37):

It’s all centralized, so you don’t know what’s going on behind those walls. You just have to trust that this data is secure. You have to trust that the providers are having your best interest at heart. So, does it work? Absolutely. You wouldn’t be talking today if web2 wasn’t born. But obviously, there are some problems with the system when you think about web2 from a user and an engineer and a security perspective, specifically the data transparency and the openness of it. So, we can either sit and leave our luck to these providers or we can create a new system that takes the benefits of Web1, web2 and improves on it. And hence the birth of web3, which is a new form of the internet that revolutionizes agreement and value exchange. It changes the way data structures in the backend of the internet and introduces a new universal state layer that incentivizes network activities through the use of tokens.

(00:27:42):

So you have a completely changed backend that’s open, that’s trustless, that’s decentralized, with a front end that we’re used to. And then you can bring in blockchain finally to the conversation and say, “All right, cool. I understand Web1. I understand web2. I get web3, so what the hell is blockchain?” Blockchain basically then reinvents the way data is stored and managed. It provides a unique set of data on this universal state layer that is collectively managed. And this unique state layer is then for the first time being able to allow you to transmit value and transactions in a permission-less way without having to rely on these providers to do it on your behalf. And then, the state itself of this whole network, this whole chain, is managed by consensus. So this is why the proof of work and proof of state mechanisms work.

(00:28:41):

You have these people who are willingly participating to secure the activities and the actions that happen on these networks so that you can use it trustlessly. You don’t have to know or trust who’s providing you that data. Everything is open, you can use it with the confidence, and then the entire network is driven by its native token. So in just that whole long-winded explanation, you have web3, then you have blockchain which handles the data management, data storage data state change, and then you have the native token, the crypto itself, that incentivizes activities on those networks. That’s how they’re all connected with each other.

Nick (00:29:21):

And it’s a powerful system because it goes back to what you said earlier about creating equality in the world. Is that right? I mean the outcome that you said a control systems engineer focuses on, these things come together and create equality?

Tachi (00:29:33):

Exactly. Yeah, so now you don’t have to be anyone special to use this system. You find a subsystem or a protocol that achieves the goal that you desire and you can permission-lessly participate in, and it doesn’t matter who you are. Now a farmer in Nigeria can interact with a real estate mogul in Korea using this system without having to know who was on the other side of the computer. He now has a chance to start a business on his own, or her own, with someone across the world. This is why I’m obsessed with web3. It’s a fair system for all.

Nick (00:30:13):

When you look back at your time working on nuclear reactors or space instrumentation, did you ever think now, “Boy, if we could go back and use blockchain technology in those prior industries, maybe that would’ve been more helpful.” Have you seen opportunities where that technology would be helpful?

Tachi (00:30:31):

Yeah, yeah. I think funnily about distribution and distributed computation. We’re not there yet as far as the tech, but I do see the possibility of having distributed computation work, especially the physics field, like computational physics. I do remember working with my colleagues back at my research facility here in Texas and working with putting up servers to model particle surface interactions. So one of the products I was working on was we have a spacecraft and we want to model how the particles in the atmosphere would interact with the surface of the craft when it’s ramming through the atmosphere. And there’s a lot to consider. There’s thermal radiation there’s particle interference, there’s charged particles, non-charged particles, ionized particles. All of these are interacting with the surface of the spacecraft, and you have to model them, sometimes on a particle level, not just blobs of particles.

(00:31:27):

That’s a lot of computational power on a small Intel PC. So I do wonder that eventually we can have a global computer that can help process these models for us, and I’m excited to see that evolution in the application of blockchain in physics specifically just for modeling. So I can call back and say, “Yeah, you can do some hard modeling now very easily.” We’re getting there. I think we’re getting there.

Nick (00:31:58):

Okay, so you mentioned when you first became aware of crypto and web3 and you started dabbling in it, you were busy at the time, but eventually you’ve made your way all the way here and you’re working on Playgrounds Analytics. Let’s go back in time. What’s the path then you took into web3?

Tachi (00:32:16):

So I dove headfirst when I became basically obsessed with Chainlink. I think that was my Kool-Aid to getting to web3. It was the easiest way for me to see the immediate impact it could have in the world. I found the vision so compelling, and I spent a lot of time studying protocols and ideas in DeFi that were using Chainlink, and listening to a lot of podcasts and reading a lot of articles on what the purpose of all of its. And, I think that’s when I started truly seeing a future for myself in web3 because it was not just cool, but it was impactful. People’s lives could be changed in the snap of a finger. So, throughout the DeFi summer explosion, I think that’s when I was really into the web3 ethos and I made a lot of friends along the way. I was being immersed in the space.

(00:33:09):

I’m not as vocal on Twitter, so I did more reading and private conversations than most people would do on the CT these days. And in the summer of 2021, I discovered Olympus DAO. And everything changed when I learned about Olympus DAO. I was in the community all the time. The community is so magnetic in every sense of the word, and I was in the Discord, learning, asking questions, making friends, and eventually decided to join the DAO by participating in Data and Metrics team. And that’s when I started learning how people interacting with on-chain data and the importance of clean, organized on-chain data for the DAOs and members of the DAO.

(00:33:54):

So I worked in the team to build an app, and that app eventually became what’s known as Olympus Playgrounds. And that app basically I built in leveraging The Graph, so I had a subgraph that was published on The Graph Network, and I just built a simple Python app on top of that that was reading the subgraph, querying the subgraph and pushing the data into dashboard, and eventually built a simulator that was using live on-chain data for the simulations.

(00:34:21):

And just like that, the community had an app that allowed them to not just see what was going on with the protocol, but also create simulations and simulate the outcomes when they take certain actions with the protocol before doing it in real life with their own money on-chain. And that was a really eye-opening, and I will say addicting experience because after that point there was no turning back for me. It’s night and day. You see the impact the moment you push your code. It’s very addicting.

Nick (00:34:53):

Tachi, when I first got involved in web3 and learning about The Graph, Chainlink came up all the time. I remember early on some people were saying it’s a yin-yang relationship, the relationship between Chainlink and The Graph whereas as I understand it, Chainlink pulls off chain data and puts it on the chain. And, as most of my listeners know, The Graph will index and make blockchain data query-able. How would you explain that relationship?

Tachi (00:35:19):

Yeah. So yeah, you are right. Although they both do very similar things as far as handling data, data servicing, data provisioning, The Graph is very unique in the fact that it’s focused on creating this entire ETLQ process, the extraction transformation, loading and querying that allows it to index these on-chain data, organize the chaos, and provides an easy query layer for you to read off the data from the blockchain.

(00:35:47):

So in many ways, it’s a read heavy, read-centric system. Whereas Chainlink is more of an Oracle system that allows you to, as you said, pass data from off chain sources to the blockchain and vice versus, so there is some symbiotic relationships between both of them. But, The Graph is very focused on providing this ETLQ infrastructure, or stack, to get on-chain data into your apps.

Nick (00:36:17):

So you join Olympus DAO, you work on the data and metrics team and launch Olympus Playgrounds. Eventually, I have to imagine this took you to Playgrounds Analytics. What’s the root and story as to how you took that initial work and created Playgrounds Analytics?

Tachi (00:36:35):

So the original idea of Playgrounds was, again, born in Olympus DAO. The idea originally was to build a data analytics app that had live data charts, data dashboards and simulation environments that can provide quality education content for protocols. And that’s when we realized how easy and cool it was to use The Graph as an ETLQ process or layer to get that on-chain data that’s pertaining to the Olympus protocol, the Olympus smart contract or its subgraph, and push that data into the app. And shortly after launching Olympus Playgrounds with some of my friends and one of my co-founders now, Mugen, it became really clear to us that people needed access. People need access to clean, transparent, and open data from the blockchain. So during our time on Olympus DAO, we found a lot of Omes, that’s the beloved name for members of the Olympus DAO community, referencing the app or the data dashboard.

(00:37:34):

And that’s when it clicked like, “Wait a second, why don’t we just build more apps on subgraphs for really popular protocols that people are using today?” And so Mugen being the design genius that he is, he was able to spin up dashboards and I’m trying to keep up with him and build backend code to push the code and the outputs to the front end, and soon after, we made friends with two of the most brilliant minds I think I’ve met ever, Thierry and Stouffer, and they are co-founders of Protean Labs, which is also a Graph grant recipient. And they’re a Canadian based company that designs open source data infrastructures and data access tools on The Graph network. And, we quickly realized that we shared philosophies, similar philosophies and visions of the future of web3, The Graph network, and we realized our works were so closely related, objectives and scopes, that it made so much sense for us to join forces and build this shared vision together.

(00:38:37):

So we had a unified vision on the future of web3, that is web3 will be ubiquitous in everyone’s life in one form or the other, and web3 will be as common or seemingly trivial as email is today. It’s powerful, it’s influential, and it’s used by all. Everyone has an email account. And we also knew that The Graph Network would be instrumental in ushering that vision, making it reality. So, we made it our mission. Let’s build on top of The Graph. Let’s extend the applications, let’s extend the access points, let’s build the bridges and join a revolution that’s happening in the network and creating that vision, making it a reality. So that’s the idea. That’s how Playgrounds was officially born. Just a bunch of builders who have a shared vision together.

Nick (00:39:27):

So flipping the script just a little bit here for users of Playgrounds then, how would you describe how it works? Somebody goes to a website and begins working on analytics? What’s the interface here?

Tachi (00:39:39):

Yes, so Playgrounds Analytics itself is the company. So we are a data solution company leveraging The Graph to provide on-chain data infrastructure and access to users, consumers, data analysts, and so on and so forth. And we do so by providing scalable, reliable, and streamlined subgraph integration tools that will interface directly with the hosted service and of course the decentralized service, once it’s fully in swing. And we do so because we believe in the importance of web3 and the impact The Graph will have on its adoption.

(00:40:12):

So we have our core technology, Maestro. And Maestro is a fully automated data orchestration platform that’s built on top of The Graph. So a user who’s using Maestro can seamlessly and successfully streamline and automate the process of interfacing with their subgraphs and pushing that data to their desired data environment. It’s that easy. It’s a simple bridge that gets your data from point A to point B specifically geared towards the data scientists of our community, the data analysts, the people who generate insight and knowledge. They need that graph data. They need that blockchain data in their environment and we provide the easiest access point to get it.

Nick (00:40:55):

So how do you think about competition? And I may have this wrong, and I’m sure you have some insights here, but there are other data bridges, so to speak, out there, certainly within The Graph ecosystem, but I’m also thinking about things like Dune analytics and similar type of products. So how do you think about competition and where Playgrounds fits in?

Tachi (00:41:16):

Yeah, I like to think that Playgrounds is our first mover with no competition in this category. That might just be the founder in me speaking, but when we created Playgrounds, we were able to categorize the different data providers and services in this space into four groups. The first is the platform-agnostic, no-code solution, the platform-agnostic code heavy solution, the platform lock-in code heavy, platform lock-in no code. So, there’s four categories. And if you were to throw the names of all major providers in this space on that board, most will fall in the platform lock-in code heavy or platform lock-in no code. The Dune Analytics of the world are in the platform lock-in code heavy. You’re locked into Dune and you have to know how to write code to use that infrastructure. You can’t easily extract the data outputs or your visualizations and your analytics out of Dune. You have to use it there. That’s why the website has a gallery for your to showcase your work.

(00:42:18):

Then you have the other side of it, the platform lock-in and the no-code. That’s the DeFi Llama and the Nonsense. It’s curated data. It’s beautifully curated data, really, for you to access your data and do some analytics there if you want to. Well, you can’t really do much with it because you’re not writing code to do any of the transformations. It’s already done for you. Where Playgrounds comes in is we are platform-agnostic no code. So we don’t lock you into any platform. We don’t lock you into any infrastructures. We don’t have you write any code. You just go to a subgraph, which is in a permission-less open API that’s already transformed data by The Graph, and then you say, “I want the data that’s being queried by this subgraph to be bridged over to my data environment and I want to do it every day at midnight, or every five hours, or every three hours,” or however long you want that data to be synced to your data environment.

(00:43:13):

And that’s all Playgrounds does. We are middle layer agnostic, no code environment to get your data because not everyone has the time and resources to write code, to write SQL. Some people just need the data in their Google spreadsheet. That’s what we’re here for. And I like to compare us to the Fivetran of web3. We just build pipelines from point A to Point B.

(00:43:33):

Nick (00:44:03):

In your mind, where does data rank in terms of importance when we talk about this broader topic of web3? Because, and I asked this question recently to Ryan Selkis of Messari, who was a guest of the podcast, there’s a lot of topics that come up in the headlines, right? There’s regulation. There’s is this a security, is it not a security in some of the securities laws in the United States? But sometimes data gets pushed around a little bit as an important talking point. Where do you place it in this bucket of important topics and issues related to web3?

Tachi (00:44:36):

Call me biased, but I think it’s the very top all of it, because you need to decode and make sense of all of the activities, the transactions. Everything that’s going on on the blockchain, it’s all data. You need to figure out a way to get that data from there and put it in a place and make sense of it. So it’s the very top, in my opinion, the most important of all of the challenges. I’m not saying the others are not important, but I do think that those problems cannot be solved if you can’t make sense of the data that would help you solve those problems in the first place. So I do believe on the blockchain to reliably solve those challenges, we do need to streamline data access and that’s why I’m in this space really, specifically data provision.

Nick (00:45:22):

You mentioned in the early days before Playgrounds came along, you were working at Olympus DAO on Olympus Playgrounds, and that’s when you first became aware of, or at least using The Graph. Can you take us back in time to when you first became aware of The Graph and what some of those original impressions were?

Tachi (00:45:37):

Yeah, I first came into contact with The Graph in 2021. I learned about the GRT token. I started docs, watched a bunch of YouTube videos. I think I earned some GRT with Coinbase Learn. There was a video you could just watch, it was like four or five slides, you’d get a buck or something in GRT. It was great. It was a perfect gateway drug, in my opinion. So I was fully immersed in The Graph and I really got into it building Olympus Playgrounds app. But at that point, I’ve gotten the prerequisite knowledge that it exists. Let’s use it to build this app because I think it’s going to do the job, and it did.

Nick (00:46:15):

So as someone who’s so committed and passionate about solving problems related to data, how important of a tool for you in the type of solutions you’re trying to create is The Graph? How important is it to you?

Tachi (00:46:28):

I think to first answer that question, I’ll take a step back and reiterate the importance of web3 because this is where The Graph really shines. So web3 itself is essentially the new internet as we know, and web3 comes building a global network where new ideas and new infrastructures, open source code, on-chain data could be built in a permission-less and open interoperable way. And what that means is builders are able to crate open source, decentralized applications, or as we call them, dApps, in this space. And dApps are the counters to the centralized versions that we’ve become used to in web2. And essentially these dApps basically are systems that are interoperable with each other, and as a result of this interoperability, you have the systems built on top of the blockchain comes convolution, comes chaos, comes a lot of data being streamed onto the blockchain. And how do you, or me, or anyone access data that’s relevant to them or their businesses or their service if there’s no infrastructure in place to easily sort through all of those data points.

(00:47:40):

That’s a big mess, and this is where The Graph really shines. The Graph essentially is a network that facilitates the creation and the functionalities of dApps. So using The Graph, a builder such as myself or yourself can index completely complex and coded data on the blockchain, or form the transformations you want on your subgraphs, and then create an access point via an API so that you don’t have to do any extra work to figure out what your data means. It’s already packaged for you. Just query it and take that data to where you need it. The Graph is doing a phenomenal job in solving this. I think it’s a critical infrastructure for web3, the future of web3 and accessing data generated in web3.

(00:48:26):

So from a slightly technical perspective, you can think of The Graph as a full stack, decentralized protocol that makes it easy to interact with on-chain data on web3, and for anyone needing organized on-chain data can simply access it using the subgraph APIs. And then the subgraph APIs themselves, or the subgraph in general, are the ETLQ, so the extract, transform, load and query layer between The Graph nodes index and the blockchain and your use wherever you want it.

Nick (00:49:00):

So is The Graph mission-critical to the infrastructure that Playgrounds is built upon?

Tachi (00:49:06):

Absolutely. Absolutely it is. So in the context of The Graph and subgraphs in general, you can think of subgraphs, as I said, as the extract, transformation, load and query layer. Playgrounds, or Maestro specifically, is an enhancement on the query layer, the Q in the ETLQ. While subgraph APIs are perfectly suited for feeding data into decentralized applications, it’s not necessarily perfectly suited for advanced data science environment, and this is where Playgrounds’ Maestro comes into play. Maestro is an interface that extends where your subgraphs can deliver data to.

(00:49:44):

So all of our tools at Playgrounds, all of our technologies, everything we build are designed to be organizers, orchestrators, integrators, and most importantly maestros that play the symphony of on-chain data from point A to point B. And we just simply tell the interfaces and the access points and the data where to play, where to go, and in perfect harmony, they follow our instructions. That’s what we do at Playgrounds.

Nick (00:50:14):

I’d love to get your opinion on something that’s come up on the podcast multiple times now. I’m thinking about interviews where guests have mentioned that The Graph has a future much bigger and brighter than just indexing and querying blockchain data. That it could be itself a platform upon which people could build. I recall conversations with guests talking about the utility of subgraphs and the things that can be built from there. Have you thought much about this? I mean, do you think that that’s true? Have you had ideas about much more to come and what this protocol can do as it evolves?

Tachi (00:50:51):

Yes, it is indeed just scratching the surface. I would say I believe when people say The Graph is like the Google of web3, there’s a lot of weight and gravity to that statement because Google is more than just a search engine. Google, because they’re able to provide well-organized indexed data, can generate new types of paradigms, new types of applications, new types of services … It’s not just emails. It’s not just YouTube. Actually, a simple way is to just say imagine everything Google can do today and Google does as far as technology and then just say, “Can The Graph do that?” And the answer is yes, because The Graph is indexing all of that complex data. It’s organizing it. It’s creating new models with that data. And then yeah for sure, today it’s just providing you with an API to query that data but in the next few years, who knows what we’re going to be doing with The Graph as the backend. I firmly believe that The Graph is just scratching the surface and this is why Playgrounds is building on top of it.

Nick (00:52:01):

Is there any exciting news or information coming about Playgrounds and how can listeners learn more if they want to get involved and begin using all this incredible stuff you’ve been talking about?

Tachi (00:52:10):

You’re asking me for alpha, my friend.

Nick (00:52:13):

I am.

Tachi (00:52:15):

Well, there’s lots of exciting developments being released. We launched the Maestro closed beta August 1st, and this gives early users access to Maestro’s platform, and they’re able to test out our pipelines, test out The Graph, get addicted to The Graph really. And we also have some exciting news regarding Maestro’s integration with the decentralized service. Once the hosted service is fully sunset, everyone will find out, once we’re ready to publicly announce. And of course, we have some exciting news on our approach to GRT management where I guess this is the real alpha where you don’t have to worry about the complexities of dealing with GRT when the hosted service is fully sunset next year. But that’s all I can share. Otherwise, my CTO and COO will have my head, so stay tuned for announcements when they’re ready.

Nick (00:53:06):

And what’s the best place to stay in tune?

Tachi (00:53:08):

We have our website, playgrounds.network. We also have our Twitter, Playgrounds0X. We have a Discord where we love to talk to community members. If you want to build, join us. I’m there every day in the Build with Friends voice channel. I share my screen and I write code all day, so join us there.

Nick (00:53:27):

So let’s return to that perspective you have as a control systems mechanical engineer and now apply The Graph. You so eloquently described a control system perspective of blockchain web3 and crypto. What about The Graph? How do you think about that as a mechanical engineer with a specialty in control systems?

Tachi (00:53:47):

So I think The Graph is a pretty elegant system with a clear output objective. It has well-defined subsystems and operators driving it, keeping its feedback loops tight, keeping the desired output, reliably generating the correct data points that a user needs when it’s queried. So in the context of The Graph, you can say, “Okay, what are the subsystems in the system?” You have the consumers, you have the Indexers, the Curators, the Delegators. The consumers are the ones paying for the queries. The Indexers are the ones operating the nodes. The Curators are using GRT to signal what subgraphs are valuable. You have the Delegators, who are putting the GRT at stake on behalf of the indexes for its work.

(00:54:30):

So this entire network has this beautiful, elegant incentivized system where these actors, anyone … You can choose whatever you want to be in the network while all these actors are acting and working in unison, in harmony, to make sure that the desired state, which is a reliable API for users to query, would work at any point in time, no matter the day, time, where you are on the planet. If you want data from the blockchain and use a subgraph API, the system will deliver. It’s quite beautiful, honestly.

Nick (00:55:05):

Well, this might be an oversimplification, but when we talk about data, oftentimes we’re talking just about an economic problem, meaning there’s the supply side and the demand side. And everything you’ve said to this point during our interview today has spoken very well about the supply side and the types of problems that these different entities including Playgrounds is solving. So my question would be on the demand side, do we need to see more consumer demand or interest in accessing data? How do you think about the demand side from the consumer of data perspective, and how do you see that changing over time?

Tachi (00:55:45):

I see the demand side, or the reliance on The Graph, as something that will continue to grow. It might look linear today, but I believe it will be exponential, especially if we do believe that the future that we’ve stated so many times in this podcast are true, that web3 will be ubiquitous to everyone’s lives and everyone is going to be touched by blockchain tech, and that data and everything that you want from the blockchain will be provided by The Graph.

(00:56:11):

Well, The Graph is not the only data provider in this entire ecosystem. There are other data providers, but I believe The Graph is the easiest and the lowest barrier to entry to getting on-chain data. And as a result of that, the demand will always be high. I could also nerd out from an engineering perspective. In thermodynamics we talk about when you have the ground state, you have a system with the lowest chaos, the lowest volatility, energy would want to flow to that area. Energy flows from a state of high volatility to low volatility. Energy or demand will flow from the more difficult, more volatile system to the easiest, more steady system. In this case, it would be The Graph. I’m not worried about the demand. As a matter of fact, I think we’ll see a nice influx specifically next year when a decentralized service is in full swing as people realize how easy it is use The Graph to get the data in a streamlined way.

Nick (00:57:10):

Well Tachi, now we’ve reached a point in the podcast where I’m going to ask you the GRTiQ 10. These are 10 questions I ask each guest of the podcast every week to help listeners learn something new, try something different, or achieve more. So are you ready for the GRTiQ 10?

Tachi (00:57:24):

Let’s go.

Nick (00:57:35):

What book or article has had the most impact on your life?

Tachi (00:57:38):

The Alchemist. I read it once every year. By Paulo Coelho.

Nick (00:57:41):

Yeah, that book comes up multiple times. It’s a very popular suggestion. I’m starting to see a theme develop there. How about movies? Is there a movie or a TV show that you think every human should be required to watch?

Tachi (00:57:52):

Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell. My name is Tachi, which is short for Tachikoma, and it’s a character from Ghost in the Shell, so that should tell you how obsessed I am with Ghost in the Shell.

Nick (00:58:04):

How about this? If you could only listen to one music album for the rest of your life, which one would you choose?

Tachi (00:58:08):

Anything by Daft Punk really. But if I had to choose, Random Access Memories by Daft Punk. It’s my favorite album.

Nick (00:58:16):

What’s the best advice someone’s ever given to you?

Tachi (00:58:18):

Always pursue what is meaningful, not what is expedient.

Nick (00:58:22):

What’s one thing you’ve learned in your life that you don’t think other people have learned or know quite yet?

Tachi (00:58:27):

Always assume that the person you’re listening to knows something you don’t. Always favor listening over speaking.

Nick (00:58:34):

What’s the best life hack you’ve discovered for yourself?

Tachi (00:58:37):

I have a standing work desk and a good noise cancellation headphones, and it’s 10x my improvement since starting Playgrounds. And also, get an hourglass and break up your difficult tasks into time blocks.

Nick (00:58:51):

Based on your own experiences and observations in life, what’s the one characteristic or habit that you think best explains people finding success in life?

Tachi (00:59:00):

Resilience.

Nick (00:59:01):

And then the final three questions, Tachi, are complete the sentence type questions. The first one is complete this sentence, the thing that most excites me about web3 is?

Tachi (00:59:10):

Leveling the playing field for everyone.

Nick (00:59:13):

If you’re on Twitter, then you should be following?

Tachi (00:59:16):

Vitalik Buterin.

Nick (00:59:17):

And finally, complete this sentence. I’m happiest when?

Tachi (00:59:21):

I’m building with my co-founders and friends.

Nick (00:59:32):

Tachi, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been very generous and a lot of your answers have been super illuminative, and I really enjoyed hearing your perspective and learning more about what you’re doing at Playgrounds. If listeners want to stay in touch with you and follow your work, what’s the best way for them to stay in touch?

Tachi (00:59:47):

You can follow me directly on Twitter, @0Tachikoma. That’s Tachi. And you can also join me at Discord. If you find our Playgrounds Twitter account, you can find our Discord server and I’m always there building and happy to chat with anyone about the future.