GRTiQ Podcast: 72 Yondon Fu and Sebastian Siemssen

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Nick (00:00:41):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today’s episode is a special edition of the podcast split into two parts. The first part of the episode is a full length interview recorded live on the main stage during Graph Hack on June 3rd, 2022.

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The two guests of the podcast are Yondon Fu, co-founder and Director of Engineering at Livepeer, and Sebastian Siemssen, co-founder and CTO at Enzyme Finance. Both Yondon and Sebastian are also members of The Graph Council.

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During our discussion, we explore a lot of interesting topics in front of a live audience, including the state of dapp development, the web3 Stack, unexplored opportunities for dapp developers, and a lot more.

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During the second part of the episode, you’re going to hear a handful of shorter interviews recorded backstage during Graph Day on June 2nd, 2022. During this part of the episode, you’ll hear from several former guests of the podcast including Tegan Kline, Kyle Rojas, Cammie Ramos Garzon, Chris Ewing, Eva Beylin, Derek Meyer, or DataNexus, and Zac Burns.

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And I’m also pleased to include a brief interview backstage with the founder and CEO of Messari, Ryan Selkis where we talk about the exciting news announced during Graph Day. The Messari will be joining The Graph Ecosystem as a Core Subgraph Developer.

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So here’s part one, the full length interview with Yondon and Sebastian. And as you’ll hear, the sound crew had a few issues getting the recording started, but it’s temporary and only lasts for the first four minutes. I hope you enjoy part one and part two of the special edition of the GRTiQ Podcast.

(00:02:19):

And I’m really thrilled with the two individuals I get to have and welcome on stage. First and foremost, I want to welcome Sebastian Siemssen, co-founder and CTO at Enzyme Finance. And I also want to welcome Yondon Fu, co-founder and Director of Engineering at Livepeer.

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Both of these gentlemen are also members of The Graph Council. So, Yondon and Sebastian, please join me on stage and give it up. Here we go. Welcome, man. Thank you so much.

(00:03:01):

So Sebastian, you and I recorded a podcast already. This is a little different setup. I don’t remember there being a live audience.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:03:14):

True.

Nick (00:03:15):

Yeah. Do we got a mic check on these guys? Maybe we should do a quick one.

Yondon Fu (00:03:19):

Hello?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:03:19):

Hello?

Yondon Fu (00:03:19):

Hello?

Nick (00:03:20):

Are you hot? You can hear them?

Yondon Fu (00:03:20):

I don’t think so.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:03:20):

Hello?

Nick (00:03:20):

All right.

Yondon Fu (00:03:21):

I think it works. Yeah.

Nick (00:03:21):

Okay, good. Good. I just want to make sure.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:03:21):

I can just lean in and…

Yondon Fu (00:03:21):

Oh, I don’t think his is working.

Nick (00:03:21):

Sebastian, is yours on?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:03:21):

Is it on? Test, test.

Nick (00:03:21):

You can hear him? Okay.

Yondon Fu (00:03:34):

Okay.

Nick (00:03:35):

We’re getting some yeses. This definitely didn’t happen with the one we did earlier, right? But Yondon, I’ve already featured Live here on the podcast, as well. Adam Soffer came on, but I’m really grateful that you had joined this panel discussion, as well. So thank you and welcome to you.

Yondon Fu (00:03:48):

Happy to be here.

Nick (00:03:49):

So, I want to start, first of all, for all of you in the audience, when I thought of the questions I was going to ask and the way to structure this podcast was from your perspective. So, I wanted to help all the hackers out there.

(00:04:02):

And so, I wanted to start with just a really basic question. So, I know a lot about your background. Sebastian, you were pre-med for a period of time. And here we are in San Francisco at Graph Hack. So let’s start with this very basic question. Why are you here? Why are you building in web3?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:04:20):

I actually got pulled into web3 by Simon, you mentioned him earlier, right? He’s currently doing the decentralized network migrations. And he brought me into a team called the Mellon Protocol in 2018 as a consultant to do an audit of their front-end application.

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And they were struggling, and that’s actually a funny story because this is a success story of The Graph. They were struggling significantly with data. And back then we actually, before software we were a thing we were then considering building a client site, GraphQL in service workers for the browser, serving all of the data requirements of the application and offloading the data fetching into the service worker instead of having that all in the front end application code.

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And then at Def Con Prague, we met Yaniv and yeah, it was just a funny coincidence that they were building this thing also based on Graph gear, which was the interface, consumer interface that we wanted to use also for our API. And then when we got back home, we initially started, immediately started working on our software. That’s how I got started. Yeah.

Nick (00:05:36):

So, Yondon, Livepeer, I love the Livepeer project, right? Incredible platform. Why did you decide to get involved and start building and found in web3 an XDI for Livepeer?

Yondon Fu (00:05:47):

Yeah, so I got started in web3, actually, after stumbling into it from open source software communities. So, I think I had spent a lot of time in open source software communities previously, and it at a certain point became apparent to me that open source software was just so fundamental infrastructure for the internet.

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And around that time there was a lot of major events that really highlighted some of the problematic aspects around sustainability and actually resiliency of that infrastructure. So, I’d been thinking about that for a while already and then stumbled into cryptocurrencies with Bitcoin and Ethereum soon afterwards.

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And I think it was really around the time that Ethereum made smart contracts more accessible, that a lot of these ideas started to click in my mind around some of the things that you could build in order to increase the sustainability of open source software and generally build more resilient internet infrastructure.

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So, that was the general basis for how I got into web3. And in terms of how I started working on Livepeer, I think it was an extension of that where thinking about how can we build more resilient internet infrastructure, how can we build it in such a way that it can be long-lived and last “forever”? And that’s just not really how businesses and internet infrastructure is built today.

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And when I thought about, alongside the other people that I work with, some of the most important internet services that are out there, video happens to be one of those services. So, that’s kind of the spark that led to that group working together to start working on Livepeer together.

Nick (00:07:34):

So, I want to stir a little bit of controversy here. So we all know, everybody here knows that web3 by definition is hard to define, right? Everybody’s using this term loosely, it’s been picked up for marketing and headlines. So web3 is a little bit tricky to define.

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But I want to actually shift the discussion to dapps and what a dapp is because surprisingly, there’s even controversy a little bit about what a dapp is. Is dapp fully built on decentralized stack? Is it not? And what’s required to go into that?

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So, let’s start with this interesting question. What is a dapp? And I guess to bolt onto that, how important is it to be fully decentralized?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:08:14):

You want to start on that?

Yondon Fu (00:08:15):

Sure. So I actually, I think the term dapp is useful, but I think of it more of as an ideal as opposed to something that we necessarily need to always talk about building. I think it’s actually more interesting to think about it in terms of we’re building applications still, but we can build more interesting and richer applications because we’re building on top of decentralized infrastructure.

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And then the term dapp ends up being useful because it can serve as a guiding North star where you can think about what are the types of properties you can enable in your app by building on top of decentralized infrastructure. So that’s a framing that I like to use that might indirectly answer your question.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:08:58):

I don’t think of decentralization as a feature. For me, that’s the prime assumption and the foundation on which we build. For me, the real feature is, and that might be controversial or rather counterintuitive, the possibilities that decentralization brings to the table.

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So, ultimately, I believe that dapps are going to enable us where currently as developers, we know that certain things in the decentralized app development world are harder to do than a traditional web2 world. But I believe, ultimately, that we’ll arrive at a point where we’ll be able to build richer, more powerful, more stable and more sustainable user interfaces and better user experiences for our users because we are building on the decentralized stack.

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So, that for me is simply the foundation on which we build. I also don’t like the distinction, honestly, because honestly for me, the ultimate goal is to replace that other thinking that there is a possible way of building apps without decentralization on as a stack.

Nick (00:10:09):

Yeah. Well it’s an exciting time to be building in this space because there’s all these concepts that need to be defined or at least agreement and consensus reached on. And I’m even talking about like a DAO, what’s a DAO? When is it a DAO? When is it not a DAO? And then here we’re talking about dapps and web3.

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So, I want to ask this next question for the benefit of those in the audience. A lot of developers, a lot of builders out there, both of you have had success in building and launching projects. What do you know now that you wish you would’ve known then when you were going around to hacks or trying to figure out how to get more established in skill? What’s your advice, I guess, I would say to the hackers in the audience? We’ll start with you Sebastian.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:10:48):

Yeah. This is an incredibly welcoming space. It might be a little bit intimidating because we have a lot of bright and powerful characters in the community. But at the same time, I think there’s a fundamental understanding that the success of the web3 community ultimately begins with the individual’s success. And so everyone wants you to succeed.

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So, it’s a very open community. If there’s any questions, there’s always a place and a person to reach out to and find your answers. And yeah, what’s also really interesting about this space is that it’s inherently open also code-wise. So, open source comes with decentralization and it’s a basic assumption that every project also has its smart contracts publicly shared as a good repository somewhere. So, there’s a lot of resources in code that you would normally not have access to.

Nick (00:11:44):

What about you, Yondon? What do you wish you would’ve known then that you know now?

Yondon Fu (00:11:49):

So, I think there’s definitely a meme in the space around how web3 can be a rabbit hole where you fall into this rabbit hole and it feels a little bit endless. And as Sebastian mentioned, it can be a little bit intimidating, but I think something that I wish I had known and that I would encourage people to think about is actually really committing to diving down that rabbit hole and really following your curiosity, and always asking the next question and not necessarily accepting things as the way they are.

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And really pressing a little bit because the reality is a lot of this thing is being, a lot of what we’re building is being built live. And whether you’re a core developer, someone actually working on a protocol or even a user, you have as much agency to influence the direction as anybody else if you continue following that rabbit hole and continue following your curiosity and just keep on asking questions.

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And I know, Sebastian, something that we were talking about was how some of the stuff that’s being talked about at Graph Hack today in terms of product features that are launching actually started with conversations that you initiated as a user once upon a time. So, I think that’s a great example of how users have as much agency as developers in this space and you just really need to go after it.

Nick (00:13:10):

I’ve mentioned a couple of times it’s so exciting to be in a space that’s emerging and growing. And you’ve been around, you’ve been able to watch the space mature a little bit, right? And so I’d be curious to get your perspectives on how, when it comes to dapp development trends and things that are happening, as things continue to evolve and mature, what observations can you make about the early days versus where we are today? Start with you, Yondon?

Yondon Fu (00:13:36):

Yeah, it’s interesting because I think in the early days of dapp development, there was an idealistic version of what a dapp was, which was you had a front-end application that would speak and interact with a smart contract deployed on a blockchain. And I think in retrospect, most people understand that that was a sort of naive view of what a dapp could be because you saw all these dapps that were built with that architecture.

(00:14:02):

And it resulted in sort of clunky experiences. They worked, but they didn’t really represent the rich and feature full experiences that we would want out of our applications. But now I think what we’re seeing is that trend emerging again, where people can focus on building front-end applications. But now we’re much more equipped from a middleware and infrastructure point of view to actually build those applications where we can still rely on say, on-chain data, on smart contracts, but we have protocols like The Graph that actually provide in a way to access that data in an efficient way, in a way that’s actually useful for those rich experiences without relying on server infrastructure.

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So, it’s interesting because we’re kind of returning to that paradigm, but now we know a lot more about what’s necessary in the layers of the stack to build the actual compelling experience. So, I think that’s a pretty exciting trend to see.

Nick (00:14:56):

What about you, Sebastian? Have you noticed any changes or trends, opportunities?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:15:00):

Yeah, I have to agree with Yondon on here, but I also say that infrastructure and DEV tooling have matured in a significant manner since the early days. I mean, early days for me means 2017, 2018, right? I mean a lot of you guys have maybe even been here for a bit longer.

(00:15:18):

But even since then it’s just been four years. The progress we have seen in terms of developer tooling and infrastructure is immense. And just in the recent years we have seen Hard Hat, we’ve seen Foundry, The Graph, things that previously were not possible and kind of put checkouts on us in terms of the ambitions we could do for our apps.

(00:15:43):

They have just, these checkouts have been point off and we can do things that just a couple of years ago were not possible. And that’s just amazing. I see that contract trend to continue. Developer tools will evolve further and we’ll be able to do more things that are still currently not possible or only with workarounds.

Nick (00:16:04):

Well, let’s talk about The Graph for a minute here. We’re here at Graph Hack. Graph Day was yesterday, an incredible day with a lot of announcements. Let’s spend a second if you don’t mind, and talk about how each of your projects uses and leverages that core infrastructure that The Graph provides.

(00:16:18):

So, maybe starting with Livepeer, Yondon, how does Livepeer use The Graph?

Yondon Fu (00:16:23):

Yeah, so Livepeer is a decentralized video streaming network, and one of the important components of that network is we have this community of node operators. And in order to provide service on the network quite similar to The Graph, they need to stake the native token for the network. And there’s also the ability for Delegators to delegate their staked LPT, the native token to different nodes or orchestrators, which is what we call them on our network.

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And this is sort of a quality assurance-type role where you can help filter out which orchestrators are performing well and which orchestrators are not performing as well. And we have this staking application, which actually plays an integral role because Delegators are using this application in order to understand performance and in order to select the top performing orchestrators.

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And the way that we use The Graph is that we have a Livepeer sub- Graph that indexes all the information, all the staking information from our contracts deployed on-chain. And that’s used to source all the data that’s required to make these decisions.

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And previously using The Graph, we were a lot more limited in the data that we could surface there, which is problematic because you want these Delegators playing this crucial role in the network to have as much rich information as possible. But we were a little bit restricted on what we could access. So The Graph was a really useful way to surface all of that so that you could have a more informed experience when making staking decisions.

Nick (00:17:55):

How about Enzyme? How does Enzyme use The Graph?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:17:58):

Yeah, so Enzyme is a decentralized asset management operating system and we understand ourselves as an infrastructure for others and ourselves also to build decentralized asset management products and services on top of. And as such, we have to provide a lot of granular data, not only about the current state of the blockchain, but also about historic events that occurred and also historic performances, prices and so on.

(00:18:28):

I think we are probably one of the bigger subgraphs, just unique smart contracts that we index on the main net are probably about 100 or 120 maybe even at this point. And then we have dynamic data sources for all of the different vaults that are spun up on Enzyme, which is a couple of thousand at this point.

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So, there’s a lot of complexity in maintaining such a big subgraph. So, recently we actually split those up also because we wanted to reduce the necessity to redeploy certain aspects of our subgraph whenever that we add new functionality and features to our product.

(00:19:08):

So, we actually operate five different subgraphs currently with different purposes. And some of them very generic, some of them more specialized to our concrete application needs. Yeah, I mean for the core of our product, we have a single subgraph that indexes all of the information about the individual voids that are deployed within Enzyme, and that includes their depositors, all of the activity of the depositors; so investments, withdrawals, trading activity, current portfolio, so accounting and all of that stuff that is relevant for a vault due to capture performance metrics over time. So, a lot of historical data also.

(00:19:51):

And we actually built our own solution for tracking historical states and tracking historical performances also including the price points of all of the assets that are within our asset universe, which has proven a challenge. So, yeah, many different ways actually.

Nick (00:20:08):

So, Sebastian, you gave a presentation yesterday at Graph Day. It was a great presentation and you did an exceptional job. Graph Day was packed with announcements, lots of news, lots of exciting things coming for the ecosystem. I thought I’d give you both an opportunity from that perspective of being a builder and dapp development. Any announcements yesterday that kind of top of mind for you, that’s something you’re excited about? Start with you, Sebastian.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:20:32):

Yeah, I mean for me it’s the obvious answer. Substreams. I am extremely excited about the possibilities and performance gains that we are all witnessing with Substreams going forward. I don’t think that we have actually fully grasped the entirety of the new possibilities that will arise from Substreams. It’s an incredible new concept.

(00:20:56):

So definitely, Substreams for me is the one answer.

Nick (00:21:00):

A lot of buzz about Substreams. What about you, Yondon, and anything jump out at you?

Yondon Fu (00:21:05):

So, maybe not the most interesting answer, but I also am quite excited about Substreams, especially after learning a lot more about it from Sebastian and talking about it. Mainly because I think at the moment, we see a lot of one subgraph per project. And I think that’s really useful, right, if you have a standardized subgraph that derives certain types of data entities for the set of contracts for a protocol.

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But I think more and more we’re going to see interesting use cases where you’re going to want very specific views and filters of on-chain data or the same open data set. And I think a great example of this that has been referenced in other presentations is lens protocol, for example.

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So, lens protocol encodes social Graph data on-chain. And I think what’s really interesting about that is one, the social Graph data is portable now. But two, anyone is free to interpret, reinterpret that social Graph data in many different contexts. And I think that’s actually the most interesting part about it.

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And what I could imagine is different flavors of subgraphs that present different views on the same social Graph data depending on the use case, whether it be certain reputation score calculations or certain token gating protocols that take your follower/followee relationship and interpret it in different ways.

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And I think that’s possible today, but I think a lot of the Substream work that the folks on in The Graph ecosystem have been working on feels like it’ll make it substantially easier and it’ll just drastically reduce the barrier to entry in order to execute experiments like that. And I think when you look at that in tandem with a lot of interest in web3 social and these open data sets, that feels pretty exciting to me.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:22:53):

I actually would like to double down on that answer. I believe if the ultimate appeal of GraphQL is to provide a bespoke interface, an API for your particular use case. So, if you’re building an application with a certain range of views on the front end, you want The GraphQL interface catered directly for those requirements as closely as possible so that you also remove the need to stitch data together in different ways to make these features possible In the front end. You want that abstraction, The GraphQL API to cater directly to your use case.

(00:23:30):

So, there is actually an incentive to build a GraphQL interface that is very custom and bespoke to your requirements of your user interface. And that makes it also so, however, that, which is a negative impact, I mean, that the subgraphs we are seeing today are not generically reusable as much as we would like them to be.

(00:23:53):

With Substreams that dynamic and that requirement of these generic data pipelines can actually be shifted to the Substreams. So, we will have, I think, a very interesting shift in how and where data is transformed in which way and to what extent. So where I believe we’ll have the smart contracts and Substreams sitting much closer together and then coding and enriching the information coming out of the smart contracts into the Substreams in a more generic manner.

(00:24:23):

And then the subgraphs will be thin layers around these Substreams further enriching and preparing the data from the Substreams into this consumer interface, which will be the subgraph.

Nick (00:24:37):

Well, there was so many announcements made, it’s easy to kind of pass over all of them and build this huge list, but there’s no question Substreams is a game changer and this is going to be really exciting to watch.

(00:24:47):

Of all the questions I wrote for the benefit, again, of the audience and for the builders out there that I thought would be the most exciting and maybe valuable to ask, it’s this question of scaling a dapp, right, growing a project. And it’s a difficult question. I’m sure there isn’t just one path, but I wonder if each of you would take a stab at providing an answer. How to scale a dapp?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:25:11):

Build on The Graph?

Yondon Fu (00:25:13):

And listen to the GRTiQ Podcast.

Nick (00:25:15):

Well, I love that answer. That sounds like a good answer to me. Thank you.

Yondon Fu (00:25:20):

No, I mean I think in all seriousness, just to revisit a comment that was made earlier around the original ideal of a dapp where you have this blockchain that all this data lives on and then a front end that can interact with it, I think what we’ve learned over the past few years is that in order to build one of these apps that scales, you have to think carefully and be very clear about the different layers of the architecture of your app.

(00:25:49):

Just because you’re building an app off of the blockchain does not mean the blockchain is a single data structure that you rely on and that’s the only thing that you need to care about. It is an important part and it’s a fundamental part and you might extract data from it using a subgraph, but it’s not the only part.

(00:26:06):

So, I think what’s really important for people thinking about scalable dapps is just be really clear about the layers of the architecture of your app and think really carefully about what you’re actually using the blockchain for, and then also the layers above it so that if you are building a really read-centric application, you want to be really clear about how you’re indexing and querying layer looks as opposed to a right focus app where you might not care as much about that.

(00:26:33):

So, I think that’s just a general framework that might be helpful to think about scalability when it comes to dapps.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:26:39):

Scalability, for me, also has two sides of it. So, on the one hand side you have scalability of the infrastructure of the servers in the traditional web2 world. Plus it’s the infrastructure of the decentralized network, how many indexes are there? Is your software sustainable? Does it index in time? How performance is all of that.

(00:27:05):

But then there’s also the scalability of the code. And scalability of the code means that you need to contain complexity. And complexity in-depth development is still higher, I would say, than in the traditional world because much more mature tools have emerged over the decades of software development in that space, but we’re getting there.

(00:27:26):

So complexity is, in my opinion, a big topic. So previously, for instance, I’d argue that it was much more complex to build the sustainability on the blockchain where the complexity of the application would grow to an unsustainable point simply due to the direct access on the blockchain, which has been significantly simplified by The Graph. So, yes, substantial impact in my opinion in that regard.

Nick (00:27:56):

You’re both spending a lot of time on your projects, right, Yondon on Livepeer, Sebastian on Enzyme. But there’s a universe of opportunities out there. And again, for all the builders in the audience, I’d be curious if you didn’t have to put your full time into what you’re doing now and you could go explore opportunities, are there places in the space, places where builders should focus their energy, some opportunities maybe? What do you think, Sebastian?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:28:20):

DEV tooling. DEV tooling is both exciting because you’re your own customer and I think that’s a really interesting dynamic. You normally, when you’re building an app as a developer, you’re not at the same boat as a user and you usually don’t have the same background and experience from the user perspective, what do they expect from your application.

(00:28:43):

I can speak from experience here because I’m not an asset manager and I’m building an asset management protocol. So, we constantly have to check our assumptions with actual users. There’s a lot of overhead required to do in that.

(00:28:56):

And building a developer tooling gives you a lot of freedom because you are your own customer and ideas that you have and experiences that you have gathered over the time of, or during the time building dapps, of gaps in tooling can then positively influence that. Yeah, DEV tooling.

Nick (00:29:18):

That’s a great insight. Yondon, how about you?

Yondon Fu (00:29:21):

I think an area that feels interesting to explore for me is, I’ll call it DAO managed applications. And specifically, what I mean there is this notion of DAOs or generally these communities being able to pay for all of the infrastructure costs on behalf of all of the members of that community.

(00:29:41):

So, I think a typical model that we use when thinking about paying for infrastructure is that you can have a single developer pay for the infrastructure costs for all of its users. And that’s the model that we use today in web2. We have all of these web2 companies that basically foot the infrastructure bill for all their users and they have alternative ways to monetize to make up for that.

(00:30:04):

And alternative to imagine is that will all the users pay for the infrastructure? And there are some benefits to that in that the users will always be able to access the infrastructure if they can pay for it. But that also kind of sucks from a UX point of view. You have to pay for all of these different services.

(00:30:19):

Imagine a world where I have to pay for data queries on The Graph, pay for storage on Filecoin, pay for all of these different storage networks or decentralized services and have the reason about that and that can be pretty challenging if that’s put on the user.

(00:30:35):

But at the same time, we know that there are problems with a single centralized entity controlling how the payments flow to infrastructure because if you’re paying for the infrastructure, you can cut off access to the infrastructure. So I think it’d be interesting to explore models where communities can come together and pull together funds in order to flip the infrastructure bill or all of their different users.

(00:30:56):

And then you might experiment with different economic mechanisms such that that can actually be sustainable for the community where the reason for joining the community is because you can bootstrap at a really low cost because other members are kind of paying it forward for everyone else.

(00:31:11):

So, I think that could be an interesting area to explore for anyone here today.

Nick (00:31:15):

The question I created that selfishly I was most excited to ask is about users of dapps. So, it’s one thing to have a great idea, it’s another thing to build in this space and to take hold of the web3 ethos. But it’s another thing for users to begin using the dapp. What are you seeing about that user market and people adopting dapps? Let’s start with you, Sebastian.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:31:41):

Can you repeat that?

Nick (00:31:46):

The total available market, right?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:31:48):

Yes.

Nick (00:31:48):

Users of dapps. What are your observations of that? Is it an ocean? Is there an adoption curve here that we’re early on? What are you seeing when it comes to Enzyme, for example?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:31:59):

Yeah. So, certainly we haven’t reached mainstream adoption yet, definitely not. And that also in some regards shifts the percentages of the user base towards developers.

(00:32:18):

I think there’s a very strong and big group of developers in this space using these apps also, which negatively or probably negatively impacts the user experience for others because I believe the way that we are currently still building user interfaces is not ideal for mainstream adoption because still a lot of details of the blockchain, what is an address, what is a block, what is a transaction, are primary concerns of many of the user interfaces out there.

(00:32:52):

Whereas, we have to assume that end users, not all of the end users at least will fully understand all of these intricate details of the blockchain and therefore also maybe overwhelmed by being presented with all of these details in these user interfaces.

(00:33:07):

So, one challenge I believe that we’ll face going forward is not only for developers of these applications, but also for the designers in this space to find ways to while keeping this information available because it is important, making or in the user interface, representing it in a way that is not daunting to end users that are less familiar with the terminology and the technology in the space.

Nick (00:33:35):

Yeah. And it gets a little more interesting at Livepeer, right? Because you’ve got people uploading and creating content and sending it there, and then users watching, viewing, and participating. What are you noticing in terms of user adoption?

Yondon Fu (00:33:48):

So, what I think is interesting is that I definitely agree that we’re not quite there yet in terms of the end-to-end experience in order to really appeal to more mainstream users. But with that being said, I think an interesting phenomenon that we’ve observed in the past year or two with all of these, whether it be DeFi Summer or NFT summer, is that I think it’s very typical for different areas of the space to be focused on their respective areas.

(00:34:16):

So, you have DeFi applications focusing on DeFi users, you have NFT applications folks focusing on NFT users. But I think with each wave in a certain way, all the activity in each of these waves increases the total addressable market for everyone working in web3.

(00:34:34):

Because regardless of what you think about DeFi, regardless of what you think about NFTs, the number of people that now know what a wallet is and know what an Ethereum address is has drastically increased, right?

(00:34:44):

And now you as a web3 social developer or a DAO developer or what have you, you have one less chasm that you need to cross in order to bridge the gap there. And I think that’s a huge opportunity because you don’t necessarily need to think about them as DeFi addresses and users or NFT addresses or users.

(00:35:04):

They are now people that have been sucked into this world where you have open data sets, you have composability, you have data portability, and you still need to build those compelling, appealing product experiences. But now you can go to all these people and you don’t have to explain what a wallet is, you can really just focus on a really clean product experience.

(00:35:25):

So, I think that’s something that I’ve observed in the past few waves, and I think it’s worthwhile considering the fact that everything that anyone is working on, whether it be DeFi or NFT, is really increasing the addressable market for anyone working in this space. And we don’t necessarily need to think about it all as in these segregated areas.

Nick (00:35:44):

Well, we’ve talked about a lot of important topics. We talked about where the opportunities are. We’ve talked about total addressable market and user adoption. And although I’m happy to have a live audience here, the audience for the podcast when it airs will be a lot bigger all across the world with builders interested in what you have to say.

(00:36:02):

So, I want to make this other point about getting started building in this space and particularly using The Graph. So, for listeners of the podcast that aren’t here at Graph Hack, what’s your advice for them to get started building in web3 and using The Graph? Yondon, let’s start with you.

Yondon Fu (00:36:19):

The two things that come to mind for me are one, I think actually attending events like this, so these hackathons, whether they be virtual or in person, just because I think it’s a really productive way to iterate and ideate really quickly, which I feel like is in order to maintain the excitement and momentum about what you’re building is especially important when you’re first starting.

(00:36:43):

And I think events like this are really helpful for that, especially if you can work with a number of like-minded people and just have really high bandwidth conversations about what you can build, how you would build.

(00:36:55):

The other thing, if you’re not at an event like this, I would say is really lean into the open source aspect of the community where there are all these really interesting projects, whether they be in DeFi, NFT, web3, social, et cetera, and all of the code is, or a lot of the code is open source.

(00:37:14):

So, you can actually learn from some of the best developers, the best designers by looking at how they’re working in public. And you can observe that by going on GitHub and checking out their repos. You can join community calls to get a sense of how they think about the problems they’re trying to solve. And you can even fork the code and I don’t think people should stray… I don’t think people should shy away from getting started by just copying some interesting things and making modifications because I think that lowers the barrier a lot. And you also learn a lot from just understanding how other people are doing it, and that can be a good jumping off point.

Nick (00:37:53):

What about you, Sebastian?

Sebastian Siemssen (00:37:55):

Yeah, events. I have to agree 100%. Hackathons is a really good example. When you join a hackathon, also, one of the remote hackathons which have been popular, especially during the COVID space, you can sign up as an individual without a team and then you get merged without other individuals and then you become a team of them, get multiple days, in some cases, even multiple weeks to work on a project together, which is a fantastic opportunity.

(00:38:23):

Afterwards, you get to present your results and then if your project is successful, you can even continue working together with the same team. And there have been examples in the past at hackathons where the teams emerged from these hackathons, which have been incredibly successful afterwards as teams in a real product.

(00:38:44):

But alternatively also, the sponsors of these hackathons, usually developer shops and developer teams and products, product teams from the space themselves. So, there are opportunities also to engage with them further. If you are building a project that is related to one of their projects, then there’s also chances that you might be able to find a job with them. So there are a lot of opportunities at these hackathons. I have to agree 100%.

(00:39:06):

We have also been sponsors of hackathons, so I can say that definitely we were welcoming these opportunities for upcoming developers to join our team afterwards also, as well. So that’s a great way.

(00:39:21):

Also, the Discord and The Graph Discord is probably one of the most active Discords in the space. There are regular office hours both from the indexes and just general also software developers on a weekly basis, if that’s correct, on Tuesdays?

Nick (00:39:37):

Yep, yep.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:39:39):

So that’s a great opportunity. Also, Chris is doing a great job running these, so if you’re interested in The Graph and getting started with The Graph, that’s probably one of the best ways to do that.

(00:39:49):

Documentation is also improving in this space. I’d say if you own a DEV shop, if you own a protocol team in the space, if you work with a team, hire DEV rail people. Make it even more accessible for newcomers. We can all benefit from having more web2 developers in this space.

Nick (00:40:05):

Yeah, incredible stuff. And yeah, The Graph ecosystem is packed with events for builders that want to get more involved all the way from index or office hours to the core DEV call to community talk, a lot of educational opportunities. So, we only have a couple minutes left here, but the last question I want to ask each of you, and you sort of answered it earlier, but I want to be more direct with it.

(00:40:25):

Let’s go to the hacker out in the audience who’s just getting started in their web3 journey. And if you could travel in time, assume you’re just getting started and you wish someone would’ve told you something then that you know now what would it be? What would be that one piece of advice that you wish someone would’ve told you?

(00:40:44):

Again, Yondon, let’s start with you and then we’ll finish with Sebastian.

Yondon Fu (00:40:48):

Yeah, I think for me it would just be keep on digging and keep on diving in and just see where it goes. I think especially early on, I think it could be really easy to get caught up in objectives and feeling like you are building something clear, but I think the reality is the process for coming up with the interesting idea that you want to focus on is a little bit more messy than that.

(00:41:13):

And I think if you are entering the space and you realize that there are particular areas that you’re not quite sure what the thing is that you will build there yet, but you just find something fascinating and you just can’t stop asking questions about it because you really want to understand it better, I would recommend just following that line of thought and go to the open source repos, open up a code editor, understand what’s happening there, even if you’re not quite sure what that’s going to lead to yet, because I think more often than not, you’ll figure that out as you continue diving in.

Nick (00:41:48):

And you, Sebastian.

Sebastian Siemssen (00:41:49):

Don’t get intimidated by the velocity and the innovation happening in this space. We are all just cooking with basic ingredients and everyone started somewhere. So, it’s easy to get intimidated in this space because we have a lot of bright individuals, incredible talent in this space. And yeah, use those. Use it as an opportunity. Engage with the community and don’t get intimidated by it.

Nick (00:42:15):

Well, I really appreciate that you guys would not only do this panel, but join me for a live session of the GRTiQ Podcast. I want to let the audience know that episode 67 released today with Connor Dunham with Soul Bound Labs. They’re here, they’ve actually got a booth here, they’re working on some really cool things on web3 reputation and merit-based governance for things like DAOs.

(00:42:36):

So, as we conclude here, how about giving it up for Sebastian Siemssen and Yondon Fu? Thank you so much for joining me.

(00:42:42):

Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it.

Yondon Fu (00:42:42):

Thank you.

Nick (00:42:42):

All right. That was a lot of fun. Thank you for…

(00:42:57):

And now here’s part two of this special edition of the GRTiQ Podcast featuring a handful of short interviews recorded backstage during Graph Day, starting with Eva Beylin, Director of The Graph Foundation, who kicked off Graph Day with a presentation about some important announcements and the growth of The Graph ecosystem.

(00:43:30):

This was also your first Graph Day and you had the opportunity to tell the decentralization story and journey. What was that like for you to tell that story and to see everything that’s happened over the last year and a half?

Eva Beylin (00:43:41):

It’s really unbelievable, truthfully. I remember when we still had only one billion queries on the hosted service and we were celebrating one billion monthly queries and supporting all these amazing DeFi apps. And now we’re at nearly a billion queries per day, around 800 million at the peak of the bull market earlier this year. So, it’s exciting to see just how far we’ve come.

(00:44:02):

The contributors continue to multiply. We have six core DEV teams. We’ve given out over $140 million worth of grants, and we’re going to continue driving towards this mission of decentralization.

Nick (00:44:13):

All right, last question is, you said that The Graph is a gateway. What does it mean to you to belong to a protocol and work on a project that is a gateway into web3 for people all across the world?

Eva Beylin (00:44:26):

It means there’s a place of belonging where it really doesn’t matter what your background is, what type of engineering. Maybe if you were a figure skater or an artist, there’s some way that you can contribute in The Graph. And so whether or not you want to be contributing to the protocol itself, delegating, or the community, there’s really opportunity for everyone.

(00:44:42):

And I’m excited to see more Graph Days with more folks coming over to wherever we are in the world to try and celebrate and build up this really fruitful community because we believe we are a uniting layer in web3 and we want everyone else to feel the same.

Nick (00:44:58):

And now here’s Kyle Rojas, Kyle emceed Graph Day and is a member of the business team at Edge & Node, a core DEV team working on The Graph.

(00:45:10):

Kyle Rojas, what an incredible journey you’ve had. You’ve been on the podcast before and talked about your move into web3 and now you’re hosting and moderating Graph Day. What’s this experience been like for you?

Kyle Rojas (00:45:23):

Cathartic, exciting, fulfilling, scary, and just awesome all around. I’m having a really good time and I’m doing good work for the world, and it’s just a mission I’ve always dreamed of and I’m excited to be here.

Nick (00:45:39):

A lot of announcements made at Graph Day today, too many to count at this point. What stood out to you most so far?

Kyle Rojas (00:45:46):

I’d say the top few were Geo, which is a new web3 native reputation based explorer that is pushing forward the platform to onboard the next billion plus users; Substreams to 100 x syncing and indexing speed, which is going to change the game of experiencing The Graph Network in general; and then Layer 2 implementation within The Graph Network that is going to make things parabolically less expensive for the world. And it’s exciting times along with everything else that was announced today.

Nick (00:46:23):

Last question. You’ve been hosting Graph Day, you’ve been introducing speakers and panelists. What does it say about The Graph when you look at this speaker lineup, when you look at the sponsor lineup, it’s almost like the who’s who of web3. What does that say about The Graph and how important it is for web3?

Kyle Rojas (00:46:39):

I think when you look at not only the speaker lineup with regards to Graph community, Graph Foundation, Edge Node team members, other core DEVs protocols like Conex, Uni Swap, Livepeer, Audios, Goldfinch and RWeave. And then you look at The Graph Hack sponsors, which are 50 of the top, who’s who in web3 chains, dapps, protocols.

(00:47:02):

It goes to show how ubiquitous The Graph technology is and how it is chain agnostic, dapp agnostic, vertical agnostic, and it truly is a public good that will be able to permeate across all verticals. And as web3 eats the world’s data, The Graph will be the technology layer to power it all.

(00:47:27):

So, it just goes to speak about the potential for not only The Graph to power web3, but just how we should build in the future of no tribalism whatsoever, but just building together because the larger the Hive mind, the more powerful it can become.

Nick (00:47:45):

Kyle, you join me in between sessions here, you’ve got to go out and introduce the next speaker. I really appreciate you sneaking me in here.

Kyle Rojas (00:47:51):

You’re the man.

Nick (00:47:55):

And now here’s three quick interviews with Cammie Ramos Garzon, Chris Ewing, and Derek Meyer following their panel discussion about being community members in The Graph ecosystem.

(00:48:09):

Cammie, what an incredible rollercoaster ride it’s been for you since joining The Graph and the web3 ecosystem. You’ve been speaking at conferences all over the world and now here you are on a panel at Graph Day. What’s that experience been like for you?

Cammie Ramos Garzon (00:48:22):

It’s been so serendipitous and really just a full circle experience to be on a panel with people. And I mentioned this in my panel that six, seven, eight months ago I was DMing on Twitter, trying to figure out how to use The Graph and how to build subgraphs.

(00:48:38):

And now being all together as contributors in the ecosystem and really just seeing a lot of people that I looked up to from Twitter and just from the Metaverse in real life has been really a great feeling.

Nick (00:48:51):

What have you learned about The Graph community in this period of time that you’ve been DEV Rel at Edge & Node?

Cammie Ramos Garzon (00:48:58):

The community is so supportive and so great. And I honestly don’t say that about just any project, and I really do think that the people in this community, specifically, are some of the best people in this space in general.

(00:49:11):

A lot of them are what I would consider OGs have been around for two or more years, and a lot of them have even been around since 2018 and that era. And everyone’s just really kind and open and down to help new people joining the community.

Nick (00:49:25):

We recently recorded a podcast and it got a ton of listens. A lot of people are very interested in it. And I guess what I want to ask you, what do you want to say to the people who were like you maybe a year ago contemplating the move into web3, not sure if they should do it? You’ve done it, you’re having this incredible experience. What do you say to them?

Cammie Ramos Garzon (00:49:44):

If you want to do it and it’s something that you’re passionate about and you have the ability to take that risk, you should just go for it. And now I understand that everyone has that same privilege to just take risks and maybe be a little bit more risky with your income and your job status. But if you do have that ability, I would totally say just dive into it.

(00:50:02):

And if you don’t have that ability, you can do what I did at first, which is basically just do web3 stuff after work and just explore on my own. But overall, I think my message is just go for it. The community is so supportive.

(00:50:13):

There’s tons of opportunity right now even in this bear market because it’s really a build market and it’s a great time to play with new protocols and just get familiar with all the tools in this space.

Nick (00:50:24):

Chris Ewing, congratulations on the panel. It was an incredible panel and you have the responsibility, but also the honor to represent The Graphtronauts and Delegator and educational community within The Graph. What was that like for you?

Chris Ewing (00:50:37):

It was an honor. This was not something that I ever anticipated doing when I first joined The Graphtronauts. It was basically just to communicate, just to talk in the community, add a little bit of my insight or my perspective on some things.

(00:50:49):

And one thing led to another. They ended up asking me to be admin. And how many months later, here we are.

Nick (00:50:55):

What’s this journey been like for you personally?

Chris Ewing (00:50:58):

I used the word surreal an awful lot. That’s, like I said before, this was not something that I anticipated from literally buying some GRT when I was sick with COVID a couple years ago and stuck in the basement and had nothing else to do. And that’s kind of where it all started.

(00:51:17):

When you’re in quarantine, you have an awful lot of time to be involved with, or to find things that are interesting to you, and that was where it started. And just, you put yourself in position to take advantage of opportunities and participate in things. Don’t present yourself as something that you aren’t. Be genuine with who you are. And if things happen, great. If they don’t, then that’s fine. You’re where life is supposed to have you.

Nick (00:51:46):

Derek, well, you just joined your first Graph Day and here you are on a panel. What was that experience like for you to be a community spotlight at your first Graph Day?

Derek Meyer (00:51:56):

It was very exciting because I think of all the different times in the community where I’ve asked questions and I’ve gotten help from the community. So, to be able to contribute and provide value to the entirety of Graph Day, it’s just a magical feeling.

(00:52:12):

So, I was so pumped when I was asked to be on this panel, and now it’s here, it’s live, now recorded, so that part’s done. I’ve got a couple of more talks that I’ll be doing over at the Hackathon. But yeah, it’s been a lot of fun.

Nick (00:52:25):

And then your personal journey right into the community has been incredible. With the recent announcement about becoming an Indexer at The Graph, what’s that journey been like for you?

Derek Meyer (00:52:35):

Oh, it’s long, long. It’s been in the work since November, and so we’ve been working on a lot of the, I guess, less interesting legal aspects of getting it up and running, the technical side of making sure that we have the technical skillset in place. That all was what I would call the fun part where we get to work on the protocol and use the technology that we have.

(00:53:00):

And the part that took longer was just getting the fundamentals of running a business and making sure that we have our tax compliance in and all of our bank accounts and payroll, all that type of stuff. And so that’s been a longer aspect, but to finally have that wrapped up, to be here at Graph Day with our Indexer live, it is actively serving queries as we’re talking. It’s very, very exciting.

(00:53:27):

In addition to that, we have a subgraph that we’re about to be deploying. And so, having all of those things kind of come together at the same time is like, I couldn’t have asked for more.

Nick (00:53:41):

And now here’s Tegan Kline, co-founder and Head of business at Edge & Node who shared some time with me following a major announcement during Graph Day about Geospace and an important message about web3 and meritocracy.

(00:53:58):

Tegan, thank you so much for joining me. So, right before you went on stage, I had the opportunity to talk to you and you said you were going to share something spicy. So what was the spice today?

Tegan Kline (00:54:06):

Totally. Yeah, I mean, it was a very interactive presentation. So, we started off with a few billionaires within the ecosystem, calling out the amount of wealth that they’ve gathered and just asking the audience how they felt about those billionaires, which was a little spicy, but really just to make the point that, listen, don’t hate the player, hate the game, hate the system that created them. Don’t hate the people that made it in the system.

(00:54:27):

And I think that that’s really important in web3 especially because this is a meritocracy. And the more value you create, the more that you should earn, the more reputation you should have. And so, I don’t think we should dis-incentivize that now that we’re creating this new system that enables that.

(00:54:42):

Whereas, in traditional companies, sometimes you work your entire life and you don’t get to the point of power that you want to have. You don’t get to the point of influence. You don’t make up a positive change or one that you feel that you’ve made, and you don’t kind of climb your way up the ladder. In web3, you’re working for yourself as opposed to working for someone else, which is really exciting.

(00:55:02):

And then we also talked about scammers, which is also a little bit controversial because I think that there’s a very specific, when I think about a scammer, there’s a very specific meaning behind that, and it’s generally someone who doesn’t have merit. It’s someone who has a lot of clout, a lot of marketing, but without merit, without having created value. And so, we talked a little bit about that as well.

Nick (00:55:22):

Well, I loved what you shared today, and a lot of it was what you said there, meritocracy. How important is meritocracy to web3?

Tegan Kline (00:55:30):

Yeah, it’s very important in the same way open source, decentralized permissionless tech is important, in the same way designing incentives is important. It’s important that every project in web3 is a meritocracy and rewarding merit.

(00:55:41):

In the same way that centralization is a warning sign, if a project or person does not have merit, is not providing value, then that should be a warning sign, as well.

Nick (00:55:49):

So, the last question I want to ask you is about Geospace. That was your big announcement today. Seems like every speaker has had the opportunity to make a big announcement. What is this space and how do you envision it contributing to web3?

Tegan Kline (00:55:59):

Yeah, so we wanted to put a stake in the ground. It’s actually here in San Francisco, so breathing some life back into San Francisco. It’s going to be a space for anyone with merit in web3 to come and work from, hack from, contribute.

(00:56:10):

I want everyone to meet their soulmates there, their business partners, their future best friends at this space, and anyone in the world can fly in and stay at the space as long as they would like to, so long as they have merit and are adding value to the web3 space. We really want this to be a space that fosters community.

(00:56:26):

So it’s 13,000 square feet in the Presidio and it will open in the coming months.

Nick (00:56:31):

Incredible. Thank you for your time, Tegan.

Tegan Kline (00:56:32):

Thank you.

Nick (00:56:36):

And now here’s Zac Burns, Research Lead at Edge & Node talking about his announcement regarding Shellproofs.

(00:56:46):

Zach, a well-respected member of The Graph community and a huge contributor. What was the big takeaway today from your presentation?

Zac Burns (00:56:53):

The best thing was just that, well, we’ve been working on this covertly for three years now and just wanted to talk about it for such a long time. And we announced Shellproofs and really can start talking about that and showing people what it can do.

Nick (00:57:08):

So, let’s start there. What is Shellproofs and what can it do?

Zac Burns (00:57:11):

Shellproofs is one of the first efficient, transparent SNARKS. And so, what that means is that we can construct proofs of correct computation that can be verified efficiently on-chain without relying on a trusted setup, which is a compromise that some of the other SNARKS in the space use to gain that efficiency.

Nick (00:57:33):

Graph Day’s has been a huge day with a lot of announcements. Before I let you go, what’s been the announcement that’s got you most excited?

Zac Burns (00:57:39):

I think Substreams is going to be really exciting because indexing performance is something that a lot of our consumers care about. I mean, we were talking about going through a lot of data on-chain, and really one of the things that’s really important to developers is to be able to iterate on subgraphs, right?

(00:57:57):

If you want to make a change to your subgraph and test and see what effect that had, or try a new API, well, that could mean it’ll deploy and then come back tomorrow and see how it went. And that’s really a terrible experience for a developer. And for them to create a great product, they need to have a quick iteration cycle, and Substreams is really going to enable that.

Nick (00:58:18):

Thank you so much for your time in doing this. I got to get to that.

(00:58:22):

And finally, here’s Ryan Selkis, Founder and CEO at Messari, talking about Graph Day’s big announcement regarding Messari and becoming a Core Subgraph Developer.

(00:58:35):

Ryan, an incredible speech today about the new partnership with The Graph. Messari, one of the most well-known brands in the crypto space. This is a big deal.

Ryan Selkis (00:58:43):

Yeah. It is a big deal. As I said in my remarks, we’ve been very patient in terms of building on-chain infrastructure ourselves, and it’s something that our users want. It’s something that I think is much needed to help people understand what’s going on in these different protocols.

(00:58:57):

And The Graph community, Edge & Node, The Graph Foundation and all the other core developers, the strategies they’ve made in the last 12 months have been tremendous and it’s really improved the reliability, the underlying protocol. We think that we’re going to be able to come in and help improve the curation and standards around the subgraphs themselves.

(00:59:16):

So, almost like we’re the front end developers as a new core developer focused on subgraphs to the backend developers that are working on the rest of the core protocol. So, we’re excited for that, and we’ve got a terrific early community that’s butting around the work that we’re doing so far.

Nick (00:59:30):

So, the community’s used to core development partnerships, but today’s subgraph core development is a new term for the community. What will you be doing in that role specifically?

Ryan Selkis (00:59:38):

We’re going to be trying to create better standards and data structures around the subgraphs, make sure that there’s some consistency between different types of subgraphs. So Dex will have a common taxonomy and design lending protocols, NFT marketplaces, really, whatever you could think of, there shouldn’t be as much variation in the structure of subgraphs as there is today if we want a more sustainable ecosystem.

(01:00:01):

So, I think creating different quality standards is also going to be a big component. How do you maintain these over time, and how do you make sure that the quality of the subgraphs across the board remains high? We’re going to be responsible for 200 to start, not just us at Messari, but the community that we’re building of other contracts of Graph developers.

(01:00:21):

And then over time, we expect that number A) will expand, and B) there will be other folks working with us on these standards as more teams start building on the open subgraph infrastructure instead of creating their own infrastructure and paywall and product.

Nick (01:00:34):

Well, you kind of mentioned it there, but last question is, forming these standardization is critical to the future of subgraphs in web3. For listeners that don’t fully understand how important that is, why is standardization so important?

Ryan Selkis (01:00:45):

Well, it’s important for, I’ll use our example as a data company. If we’re building on subgraphs, historically, there’s pretty wide variation in the consistency and exactly what information would be spit out of these subgraphs. And we can’t have that because if one asset, one metric for one asset looks wrong in a column that we have or a chart that we have, the whole product looks wrong.

(01:01:08):

So, you really need to have consistency and kind of high degree of confidence in every single subgraph you’re building on top of. That’s been difficult historically for a variety of reasons. One is anyone can create a subgraph, which is good, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s gone through any period of review.

(01:01:23):

Two, there’s that same creator, isn’t necessarily the long-term maintainer. So you have a lot of subgraphs that can go stale, they can have different components that break over time. So, improving that process and long-term monitoring and maintenance is going to be important.

(01:01:37):

And then figuring out the ongoing incentivization scheme for folks that are not just doing the initial creation work, but ultimately making sure that there’s good uptime and good consistency whenever there’s something that changes, or in worst case scenario, breaks in one of the subgraphs.