GRTiQ Podcast: 101 Claberus

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Claberus (00:18):

And that there’s so many things you can do and for a podcast mostly about reporting, there’s no use to have all of this data if it’s not very easy to access. And then I would say for a network like Gnosis Chain, it’s super important, because it’s what builders are using, so should be available absolutely everywhere.

Speaker 2 (00:34):

[inaudible 00:00:35] six, five, four, three, two, one. We have lift off.

Nick (00:35):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today, I’m speaking with Claberus, co-founder of Karpatkey, a team that designs and implements non-custodial and trust-minimized DeFi strategies for DAO treasuries. As I’m sure you’ve seen already for yourself, DAOs have captured the interest of the entire web3 industry and it can be a challenge sometimes to understand what makes a DAO a DAO, how DAOs work and function and what’s the future of DAOs. But during this interview with Claberus, we’re going to go inside DAOs from the perspective of someone who has direct experience with some of the biggest and well-known DAOs in the industry. In addition, we’re going to learn how Karpatkey is creating important value for DAOs by providing expertise in treasury management and financial decisions. It’s hard to imagine a future where DAOs flourish and teams like Karpatkey are not part of the explanation. As always, I started the conversation off by asking Claberus about his educational background.

Claberus (02:09):

I’m an engineer with a background in project management and financial modeling. I started my career working for Chevron, this oil and gas company, working in the development of capital projects for around five years and it was a great experience and a very good school for me. I wanted to be part of an industry of the future and I also wanted to see the world at that moment, so I just quit, sold a lot of my stuff and went to travel, volunteer and join crypto.

Nick (02:46):

Well, that’s amazing. And not a lot of people have the courage to do that. So you quit your job and you begin traveling. What did you do during that time when you were traveling?

Claberus (02:56):

In that moment, I went mostly to Asia and I started this hitchhiking road trip around Southeast Asia, southwest of China, Tibet and I did a few volunteering experiences. In the countryside in Vietnam, I did a few water wells for people in the rural Vietnam and center of Vietnam. Then in the north of India, I did an electricity call for an NGO and I also did some English teaching in Thailand.

Nick (03:31):

It sounds like an incredible experience. I’ve had other guests on the podcast before who have traveled the world and done this hitchhiking thing. I’m curious what that experience was like for you. What did you learn about the world or about people through this experience?

Claberus (03:47):

I would say that the most important thing I learned is really however we have to adapt really. We believe that we take for granted the things we do and we cannot live without them and then you realize that yes, after a few days, you can get used to different cultures, different languages, different food and this is what I learned the most. It’s power of adaptability and at the end, how similar we are, doesn’t matter where. Countries, cultures, yes, that I would say that’s the most important thing.

Nick (04:22):

Uri Goldshtein, who’s the founder of The Guild, talked about doing something very similar to this and he said the thing that he learned the most is that people are mostly kind and that there really isn’t anything to fear that if you are able to talk to people and communicate. Most people anywhere in the world are generous and kind and will help you out. Does that line up with your experience as well? Do you think that’s true?

Claberus (04:45):

Oh, 100%. Especially after doing this huge hiking and also couch-surfing, really, you find, yeah, incredible people and I get these goosebumps when I think about all of the people I met and yeah, incredible people absolutely everywhere.

Nick (05:04):

Well, in addition to that very interesting part of your background, you’ve also lived at a lot of different places. So you’re from Argentina, but you recently moved to Lisbon and you’ve been spending also some time in Thailand. What can you share about the move to Lisbon? A lot of people are doing it. You’re not the first guest of this podcast that’s headed that way. What drew you there?

Claberus (05:23):

Well, I used to be a digital nomad, traveling from country to country for a few years and I spent most of my time in Asian countries. Just Thailand, China, Korea, Philippines, Ukraine and now Portugal, mostly because I wanted to settle down a little bit, but also because, well, here Portugal is super welcoming to foreigners, an incredible place to live and the crypto scene is amazing really. It’s full of builders.

Nick (05:54):

Can we talk a little bit about that, because Argentina’s very much the same. Your home country has a very strong crypto scene. I know there’s a lot of members of The Graph community, for example, that are very active and live in Argentina. What is it about Argentina? What is it about Lisbon that creates these really cool pools of people interested or with conviction for crypto?

Claberus (06:20):

I would say each country has their different reasons. Argentina, it’s mostly about not trusting the government and every kind of economic experiments been done in Argentina, so Argentinians are very used to trying new things related to money and crypto was the perfect fit for Argentina. Let’s say for other countries that are very mainstream like Korea, I think it’s this betting culture is super popular. And Lisbon, probably in the beginning, it was mostly a regulation thing, that Portugal is very friendly, especially for Europeans, but at least in my case, it’s that it’s quite easy to get a visa as a non-European. So yeah, I think it’s this combination of things. They were very welcoming to foreigners.

Nick (07:13):

Claberus, I’ve also had the opportunity to have teachers on the podcast before. People that, at some point in their career, have been able to teach a subject. I was looking at your background and you taught economic engineering, if I’m understanding that correctly and I’ve had a lot of engineers on the podcast. Software engineers, system engineers. You might be the first financial or economic engineer. I’d be curious what that actually is.

Claberus (07:37):

It’s primarily corporate finance, financial risk management, valuation of derivatives and also some marginal analysis, which is very important for engineering students to have some tools for decision making, but also, I would say yes, my co-founder, [inaudible 00:07:59], has much more teaching experience than me and I think this culture of knowledge sharing and being rigorous about evaluating whether a DeFi protocol is robust or not was very important for building Karpatkey.

Nick (08:15):

Well, I’ve got a lot more questions about Karpatkey and we’ll get there in a minute and explore a little bit of the background and what you folks are doing within the crypto space. Before we get there though, talk about this transition to deciding to become a developer or learning and moving into the tech space. What happened at that point in your life to spur that change?

Claberus (08:34):

In the beginning, I needed to automate some simple problems for market making, so I just learned Python. Then I realized that being a liquidity provider in the financial system, which is what I was doing at the moment around 2017, would not really be my life’s mission. I was not very fulfilled, so I started to get more involved in Ethereum core development, attending all Core Devs, these kind of things. And yeah, this was a time where reading everything online was possible about crypto and I was obsessed with learning, so this is how I got into developing on Ethereum.

Nick (09:22):

Let’s talk a little bit more about that. Do you remember when you first became aware of crypto? Did it proceed this period in your life and what were those first impressions?

Claberus (09:29):

Yes. For me, it was a very practical thing. It was around 2015 and back at that time, saving and buying US dollars was forbidden in Argentina. And this is something really crazy, because Argentinians denominate their savings in dollars, so there was this huge civil disobedience movement, that everybody was trying to check ways how to keep their savings, so Bitcoin was a good way to take my savings abroad by arbitraging it. Basically, having bank accounts in different countries, you’re able to use Bitcoin as a bridge, so this is how I started and then I found there was this arbitrage opportunity, so I started doing it from, yeah, between Europe, United States and Argentina.

Nick (10:28):

Claberus, this is a question I ask a lot of guests that come on the podcast and I want to ask it to you. It’s this question about the adoption of crypto. So you’re obviously from Argentina. You explained there how you would use Bitcoin to protect or hedge against inflation and other things. In the United States, crypto is still seen, I believe, as a speculative investment type of thing, whereas in places like Argentina and other places I presume that you’ve traveled, there’s a lot more utility to it. It’s something that creates a lot more value than just something based on speculation. Do you think that’s true? Do you think people outside of the United States are pulled more towards the adoption of crypto, because they’ve been the first to realize the real utility of it?

Claberus (11:16):

I think the main reason is first world countries, it’s more difficult to see it, because the financial system works and you know this, so build utilities based on efficiencies in moving funds from country to country and not just efficiencies in terms of saving money, but sometimes, it’s really the only option. So it’s about availability, I would say.

Nick (11:46):

I’d also be curious about that transition you made as a financial economics guy, learning development and it sounds like you read some books and stuff, but I think there’s a lot of listeners of the podcast that would like to make that move and certainly prior guests have done it, but how did you approach that? How did you learn how to develop? Did you watch YouTube videos? Did you read a particular book? What did you do?

Claberus (12:10):

There are a lot of courses on Udemy, YouTube, but also Discord and it’s very easy to get connected to our industry. I would say absolutely everything is there online. You just need the time and need to be curious and start meeting people to find some motivation, but everything is there really. Sometimes it’s even possible to do it without books. Everything is online.

Nick (13:08):

Shortly after you became interested in crypto and started learning how to develop, in 2020, you went to work as a project manager at Gnosis Chain. A lot of listeners are going to be thinking about Gnosis Chain, because it was the first chain added to The Graph through the MIPs program recently. What can you tell us about how Gnosis Chain is different from other chains and what you did there?

Claberus (14:01):

I Joined Gnosis in 2020 to work on Ethereum core development. At that time, we had the Parity client, which was around 20% of all of the nodes of the Ethereum network, so it was the second-largest client and the team that was maintaining it had already moved to Polkadot. So really, nobody was maintaining and delivering the forks and Gnosis stepped up to fund a team to maintain and deliver these hard forks and I joined as a project manager. We shipped Berlin fork, London fork and then we deprecated before the merge. And I think this experience was very useful for Gnosis to build some capabilities in building infrastructure that was later used to build Gnosis Chain and building a relationship with a lot of teams that maintain Layer 1 networks.

Nick (15:05):

A lot of listeners to this podcast are new to crypto and they probably don’t fully understand why there’s a need for so many different blockchains. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Gnosis Chain and there’s so many others. When you think about how Gnosis Chain is different from other chains, to help listeners that are just trying to understand why there are different chains, what would you say?

Claberus (15:29):

Gnosis Chain is different to other networks, mostly because of its focus on decentralization. This is a particular thing that not many other networks consider as the most important thing, but really, this is the main reason why blockchains exist, to have an environment that is neutrally credible. People can build and they can make sure it’s not going to disappear, it’s not going to be censored and at this point, really, Gnosis Chain is the only alternative other than Ethereum that has these properties. But on top of that, it’s superfast and cheap, so this is the edge it has.

Nick (16:17):

So you go to work on Gnosis Chain and then in 2021, you found, with some partners, Karpatkey and that’s why we’re talking today. An incredible team doing some innovative things in the DAO space, so let’s start with the basics. What is Karpatkey and how does it work?

Claberus (16:34):

Karpatkey is a DAO of independent financial engineers and developers that support DAOs in treasury operations. I co-founded it and it’s an spinoff originally from Gnosis, but was born to solve this very real problem we had at the time, which was how to manage the large treasury Gnosis had in an efficient and professional way. We really wanted to do it in a way that would follow the ethos of DeFi, Ethereum and Gnosis, so we had to develop tools to do it in a non-custodial, transparent and trustless execution and these tools later allowed us to help other DAOs to professionalize their treasury management.

Nick (17:27):

So you mentioned then in the origins of Karpatkey that treasury management was really where it started, but Karpatkey and the team does a lot more for DAOs than just that. Can you walk us through the ways that the Karpatkey team creates values in the DAOs in which they work?

Claberus (17:45):

Sure. There are a few problems we have in DeFi managing funds that we take for granted in traditional finance. Let’s say we know due to regulation that no fund manager can just run away with their funds and if they do it, they’re going to be prosecuted, so really, the custodianship of funds, it’s solved. The thing is in the Ethereum environment, which is very adversarial, we need to build these tools that empower the original owners, so funds can be managed in a non-custodial way. These tools we are building, these tools or guards against malicious sectors are being built on top of the Zodiac protocol, so it’s a set of tools or modules to build an open standard for DAO tooling. So some other things we do, our industry is really underrepresented in terms of financial professionals. I would say most of the builders are developers, so we wanted to put these financial professionals at the center or at the core of Karpatkey DAO.

(19:02):

So the way we work is we build products for treasury managers, which are internal customer, or I would say just the DAOs we work with, depending on how you frame it. We have this interesting loop where we build tools for ourselves, so this is how we are able to shape really practical solutions to our own problems. And we have experience developing DeFi strategies, which were quite complex in the bull market and our current focus is capital preservation and risk management. We’re also experienced in many other traditional finance functions for DAOs. Let’s say incentives designs, DAO to DAO operations and partnerships, some functions that would traditionally fall into investment banking like mergers, acquisitions, forecasts. Anything that is related to finances, we do.

Nick (20:06):

Where does the name come from, by the way, Karpatkey?

Claberus (20:09):

Yes. The name is originally inspired by the Carpathian mountain range in West Ukraine. I used to live there.

Nick (20:16):

Well, you must have thought a lot about this mountain range to name what you’re doing after it. Describe it for us. What is so special about the Carpathian mountain range in Ukraine?

Claberus (20:25):

I think it’s very special and you would be surprised that it’s so natural and untouched and that was really a surprise for me, for a European mountain range. Europe is completely populated, so you would never believe it’s in Europe really. It’s so unexplored and a little bit related to the lack of infrastructure, but yeah, it gives this magical thing.

Nick (21:00):

So I want to make sure I understand the way Karpatkey works and I’m going to just repeat it back to you and let you correct me where I’m wrong, or agree with me where I’m right. In essence, as most listeners know, DAOs are springing up throughout the crypto space and these DAOs have treasuries. You said there, there’s an underrepresentation of financial professionals in the industry and more specifically in DAOs and so Karpatkey team, based on the experience they had at Gnosis Chain, goes out and works with DAOs on treasury management and all the other things you listed there. Is that a good summary of how it works?

Claberus (21:38):

Yeah. I think it is. The main thing we do is we start working with these DAOs, we become part of these DAOs, we build these treasury core units or working groups, however you want to call them, and we become part of these DAOs. So yes, this is what we’ve been doing and we are expanding to more DAOs.

Nick (22:00):

So one follow up question on that. The conventional DAO model is that a group of individuals have a vision or a mission, they form a DAO and people start joining and that can be a very formal process to very informal. My question is are DAOs reaching out to Karpatkey and saying, “Hey, we’d like to contract with you to be our financial team.” Is Karpatkey reaching out to DAOs and saying, “Hey, we’re going to join the DAO and by the way, once we join, we’re financial professionals and create a ton of value in things like treasury management.” How is it working?

Claberus (22:38):

Usually, it’s quite difficult to find where a DAO starts, around how it begins, but usually, it’s just connections we have with these DAOs and sometimes the team is interested. They’ll start collaborating and we start helping in governance, or helping in this, let’s say, treasury diversification decisions. And then there is eventually this natural path, where we work together and when there is this need, we start working with them. For us, it’s really important to believe in the DAOs we work with, because we plan really long term. We build teams that are really in the long term for these DAOs. So I would say yes, they become part of us and we become part of them, so at the end, we are really interconnected with each of the treasuries we work with.

Nick (23:35):

What can you share about the team at Karpatkey?

Claberus (23:38):

We’re located in really almost every continent. Of course, we are working remotely, we work in a synchronous way and we have a few teams. One of the teams are research and strategy. We have a team for execution. We also have a team for risk analysis. Those are mostly financial engineers. And then we have a tech product team that develops solutions for automated risk management. It’s just everything is on the chain and also, some tools for these financial managers. So I would say we’re a half and half developers and financial engineers. So yeah, a few teams around the world and usually, each of these core unit within DAOs are composed of a financial engineer, a risk analyst, a treasury or endowment manager and somebody from operations.

Nick (24:39):

Well, this model of what Karpatkey does and the value it creates is compelling, especially given the popularity of DAOs and the need for more financial professionals managing treasuries and things like that. I think the question would be how does Karpatkey make money? How would you explain that?

Claberus (24:57):

Sure. So we charge a performance fee based on the revenues we create with the DAO assets and this is one thing. And then we also charge a management fee based on the amount of funds we manage and that’s to cover fixed costs like infrastructure and fees for the contributors, so this would be the way we do it.

Nick (25:23):

Well, Claberus, you’re obviously a very smart guy. You’ve got a very interesting background and you know your way around finances, economics. These are the types of tools that anyone could go out and carve their own career in so many different industries, but yet you and the team at Karpatkey have decided to bet on DAOs and the future of DAOs. I’d be curious why.

Claberus (25:45):

I believe DAOs are the most neutral mechanism to coordinate and create incentives for people who don’t necessarily know each other and I believe that someday, a DAO will be larger than any corporation. And not only Apple at two trillions valuation, but probably larger than most nation states. And I think there is this pattern you can observe nowadays in DAOs that they’re starting to behave in a very similar way to governments. You can see around there, these daily platforms, they’re acting as politicians. There is this somehow decentralized decision making that resembles democracy, so I suspect they’re going to be the largest peoples, organizations of the future, yeah, and the whole world.

Nick (26:49):

I don’t know if you’re able to share this information, but I’m sure listeners would be curious to know what DAOs Karpatkey currently works with.

Claberus (26:56):

Right now, Karpatkey manages the treasury of the GnosisDAO, Balancer DAO. We’re also managing the ENS Endowment and we’re also working with CoWDAO and we’re also, yeah, in negotiations with a few other DAOs.

Nick (27:13):

That’s an impressive list and most listeners will recognize all those names and so you’re obviously having an impact here and the vision for what Karpatkey wants to do in the world is being tested at some of the top and most well known DAOs in the industry. Given this specialization, this perspective of DAOs, how would you describe the state of DAOs within web3 crypto industry? And I ask because there was a time where it seemed faddish to me and it just seemed like everybody was starting a DAO and what a DAO actually was was so loosely defined that sometimes I didn’t even know what it was. So how would you describe the state of DAOs presently?

Claberus (27:58):

I think it’s very, very difficult to reach to a consensus of what a DAO is. I think we have as many definitions as people you ask and I would say that right now, DAOs are not either very decentralized, or autonomous, or organized. So the way I like to define a DAO, it, in a broader way, is just a bunch of peoples coordinating some some efforts powered by internet money and that’s a movement that is growing at an incredible rate, even in the bear market. So under this definition, I think what qualifies as a real DAO, I’m not convinced it can be something that is incorporated, because otherwise, that will be just a company, but this is something I believe there is no strict definition of a DAO.

Nick (29:02):

Outside of some of the things I mentioned, which are this loose definition of what a DAO is and the potential of it being perceived as just a fad within this emerging industry, outside of maybe those things, what are some of the biggest challenges, in your opinion, facing DAOs or the DAO model itself?

Claberus (29:21):

I think real DAOs are probably global and this very digital nature of DAOs transcended borders, so I think what is quite difficult is how do we make them comply with every jurisdiction? So this is a challenge that will be very difficult to resolve.

Nick (29:48):

Are there any traits that you think explain why a DAO might be successful verse other DAOs?

Claberus (29:56):

In my experience, the most successful DAOs usually share a few characteristics. The most important one is strong leadership. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, because sometimes leadership is a centralizing force, but I still think it’s super important that we’re people, we need a strong leadership. And another thing that is super important in the DAOs that I believe are successful is having a loyal community and definitely one that is very important is hungry builders. Yes. That’s a recipe for a good DAO, I would say.

Nick (30:44):

Well, I’m involved in a DAO and I’ve had the opportunity to have my own experiences and observations about these things. I have a question about that leadership component. I guess my question would be is there a certain style or brand of leadership that you would say is more important in this DAO environment than others?

Claberus (31:03):

It shouldn’t be the type of leaders that are just charismatic, but people with strong ethics, with a strong vision that really can inspire others and hopefully, a leader that is able to remove herself from this power position and allow the community to grow and empower the community, I would say.

Nick (32:06):

Claberus, are there any DAOs that represent the high mark or the standard for what a DAO should look like?

Claberus (32:13):

I don’t think there’s a DAO today that is in an ideal in every field, let’s say, but I can definitely say GnosisDAO is leading really in terms of sound chain development. I really admire ENS for their governance model and how they make their decisions in a decentralized way. That’s really admirable, I would say, in terms of in general experience. And Maker, definitely, they had this very long experience in core unit development and in general Ethereum, as a DAO, I would say is an example in terms of their vision and also how they were able to really include almost everybody around the world. Yes. Their inclusion thing. Yes.

Nick (33:14):

I’m sure I have a lot of listeners that are either contemplating joining a DAO, or maybe they have the ambition to start a DAO. Given your experience and all the observations you’ve made, what’s your advice to them?

Claberus (33:26):

I would say the most important thing is just be curious. Don’t wait for an invitation and just develop some kind of conviction why you want to be part of this community. You need to build this conviction really and that’s not something that comes with a job offering, or a winning a proposal, to just sign a contract. That’s not it. The interesting thing about DAOs is that you don’t ask for permission to be part of a DAO. If you really want to do it, just join Discord, yeah, create a user in a forum and start contributing, giving your opinion and if you want to be part of a DAO, there are endless ways to contribute, I would say.

Nick (34:21):

What can you share with listeners about the future? Maybe some updates or announcements related to Karpatkey and the things you guys are working on.

Claberus (34:28):

Right now, we are creating a new treasury management pod unit with the Gnosis Guild team. And we’re welcoming new contributors. Most of us are engineers and there’s not a lot of marketing material that were created, but you can read about the things we’re doing on Medium and also our Twitter.

Nick (34:51):

Claberus, I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask someone like you, who has good expertise and experience in finances and traditional investments, how do you think DeFi changes the world or is better than traditional finance?

Claberus (35:07):

The way I envision DeFi is an open, global and inclusive network that could eventually connect the mainstream financial system with most of the global informal economies that can, in some way, empower the individual.

Nick (35:28):

When it comes to web3 and DeFi, as you know, a lot of my listeners are enthusiastic about The Graph and the future of The Graph. Do you have a sense for the role The Graph will play in the future of DeFi and web3?

Claberus (35:41):

I can see that in different ways. As a user, I think it’s super important to have this data in an accessible way and transparent to users, let’s say, for governance, yeah, that there’s so many things you can do and Karpatkey’s mostly about reporting. There is no use to have all of this data if it’s not very easy to access. And then I would say for a network like Gnosis Chain, it’s super important, because it’s what builders are using, so should be available absolutely everywhere.

Nick (36:19):

I want to ask you just two more questions and then I’m going to ask you the GRTiQ 10. The first question is about the current state of the crypto market, again, drawing on your experience as a financial economic guy who’s worked in that field. Are you optimistic about the future of web3, about the future of DeFi, even given, I guess, the current marking condition and all that happened in 2022?

Claberus (36:45):

Yes. For people who’s been here for a long time, really nothing has changed with this new macroeconomic scenario. The thing is the more significant or large DeFi becomes, the more connected and correlated it’s with the macroeconomy. And yeah, I haven’t listened so far, any sound arguments that somehow made me think there would be a reduced demand, or either sound money, or remission is innovation, so yes, nothing’s changed for us. I’m bullish.

Nick (37:20):

And the last question I want to ask you is somewhat related to that and it’s definitely related to what you and the team at Karpatkey are doing and that is this idea of treasury management. I think if you read the headlines and go back and look at 2022, and I presume this will be true for the future as well, a lot of projects in the web3 space got in trouble because of poor treasury management. And so my question for you is how important is treasury management, not only in the present market, but into the future?

Claberus (37:53):

Treasuries are the fuel for development for any DAO. You need a good, sound, safe, transparent treasury management practices, because without a treasury, yeah, it’s very difficult to do anything. You need funds to coordinate people, to align people, especially, well, builders, so it’s critical to do it in the most professional way possible.

Nick (38:20):

Well, Claberus, now we’ve reached the point in the podcast where I’m going to ask you the GRTiQ 10. This has become a real listener favorite. These are 10 questions I ask each guest of the podcast every week, with the intent of introducing listeners to new ideas, encouraging them to try something new, or to achieve more in their life. So are you ready for the GRTiQ 10?

Claberus (38:40):

Sure.

Nick (38:51):

What book or articles had the most impact on your life?

Claberus (38:55):

That would be The Ascent of Money by Niall Ferguson, or Debt by Graeber. I think financial book histories were really helpful to find parallels with DeFi and to speculate or predict trends.

Nick (39:16):

Is there a movie or a TV show that you would recommend everybody should watch?

Claberus (39:20):

Samsara and that’s a movie anybody could watch, because there is no need for translation or subtitles.

Nick (39:28):

If you could listen to only one music album for the rest of your life, which one would you choose?

Claberus (39:33):

That would be Kind of Blue, Miles Davis.

Nick (39:36):

And how about advice? What’s the best advice someone’s ever given to you?

Claberus (39:40):

Not your keys, not your coins.

Nick (39:42):

What’s one thing you’ve learned in your life that you don’t think most other people have learned or know yet?

Claberus (39:47):

I would say our own perceived adaptability powers and how quickly we can get used to a new lifestyle and that’s really any lifestyle.

Nick (40:02):

What’s the best life hack you’ve discovered for yourself?

Claberus (40:05):

If you find yourself in your own state of flow, do really anything to avoid interruptions.

Nick (40:14):

And how about this one? Based on your own life experiences and observations, what’s the one habit or characteristic that you think best explains how people find success in life?

Claberus (40:24):

That’s persevering and keep trying to force that perfect time-space opportunity.

Nick (40:36):

And then the final three questions are complete the sentence type questions, so the first one’s this. The thing that most excites me about web3 is…

Claberus (40:44):

The sound money and ownership

Nick (40:47):

And this. Complete the sentence. If you’re on Twitter, then you should be following…

Claberus (40:51):

Oh, there’s too many people, but you can find my list on Twitter with people that usually tweet about governance and other research and you can find them on my Twitter handle, Claberus.

Nick (41:06):

And then finally, complete this sentence. I’m happiest when…

Claberus (41:12):

When I’m connected with people and nature.

Nick (41:23):

Claberus, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been very generous. I know we had some technical difficulties getting started, so I appreciate your patience. If people want to learn more about you and some of the things you’re working on, what’s the best way for them to stay in touch?

Claberus (41:36):

That’ll be Twitter. You can contact me at Claberus, but also you can Karpatkey’s website or Twitter. I would say that right now, the most useful way to learn about us is check our treasury proposals. That’s either for, yeah, ENS, GnosisDAO, or Balancer. That’s the best way to be in touch.