GRTiQ Podcast: 28 Carl Hagerling

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Carl Hagerling (00:14):

As I said earlier, I think The Graph is a democratic way of handling data, and it’s going to be a vibrant platform of information that’s useful, accurate, and reliable, and I believe in that so much.

Nick (01:11):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today, I’m speaking with Carl Hagerling, Co-Founder and Design Lead at Edge & Node. You may not know Carl or perhaps you haven’t heard his name before, but you’ve definitely admired his work. Carl is the designer who created The Graph’s logo and brand.

(01:29):

My conversation with Carl covers many interesting topics, including how he met the founders of The Graph in the early days before they started The Graph, his impressive professional credentials, providing world-class design work for some of the world’s largest brands, and something I know you’ll enjoy hearing and learning more about, how Carl approached and created The Graph’s logo and brand.

(01:52):

As always, I started the conversation by asking Carl about his background.

Carl Hagerling (01:59):

So I started too long, I would say, if I just got to summarize it shortly. But I have two educations, one within media design and one within industrial design.

(02:11):

So first I have a bachelor in media design, and I was 18 starting at that. At the time, it was just, I had the first iMac generation 1998 and I used Illustrator 8, and what was really good with that school was I had internships, so I had the opportunity to go out to real working environments and talk to real users, and that’s what I learned the most from doing. And then it was also the big crash there. The IT boom, it collapsed in a really way, and I always felt like web design or web development was not the real thing. So at the time I didn’t consider web development to be a real profession, so I wanted to go into software that didn’t feel like it was just my hobby to create websites and other things into a real job doing hardware design.

(03:03):

So then I applied for a industrial design program in Lund, Sweden, and they accepted me and it was a five year education, and it felt great to do real products. Also, I am still passionate about physical objects, but at that school I think I developed my creative side. I met so many other talented creatives, and we lived and worked, or started really close to each other, so it was a place where you can collaborate and, yes, grow as a person. And that’s where I evolved my form language, because I as produced, produced, produced designs, and the more you produce, the more you get to know yourself and what you like and why you don’t like things, and you have your friends also they’re providing feedback, harsh and honest. And I still hang out with some of the friends from that time.

(04:05):

I guess also during that time I developed a reliable design process, because design is an art in a way, and sometimes it’s hard to predict when you will create the masterpiece. When do you have that source of inspiration that just kicks in. But I somehow managed to rely on that. I will always find some source of inspiration. I will always hit the deadline somehow, and that is really good, especially when you’re working in real environments and not in school. Then it’s always hitting deadline, hitting deadline.

(04:44):

I would say also for a while there, maybe before studying, I thought I’m going to run out of ideas, so maybe I hold my ideas close to myself, but as time passed I realized no, I will not run out of ideas, and ideas are better shared because they grow. And so I’m much more open nowadays and collaborative, and it’s more, much more fun, the design process, if you are sharing instead of introverted.

Nick (05:14):

So with all that said then, Carl, why is it that you decided to pursue a career in design?

Carl Hagerling (05:20):

So I studied seven years of design in total, so that’s a long time, but I think that what I’ve learned most from is actually my parents. I had a amazing family growing up. I have the luxury, because my father had his own business, so that always felt like this go your own path, create something you believe in. I had that from growing up, and I know I had the luxury … and I know a lot of people don’t have this … but I know if something doesn’t work out in my life, I know I have my family as a safety net, and that makes me risk a little bit in life, and I know they will lift me up if I fall. I hope that’s something I can give to my kids also, that they have some safety net, so they can be adventurous and take risks and follow their dreams, and from my earliest, my father had his own company running. He had his business running from home. So I always had computers around, and in the beginning maybe it was more mostly computer games. But then after a while we started to design our own computer games, my brother and myself.

(06:36):

But back then maybe we did Duke Nukem, that had a map editor, and then maybe I started to create my own maps, and made my own textures and my own weapons, and then I wanted to do t-shirts with prints with the designs. And then I started using Illustrator to do that, and then I had to have a webpage to showcase my designs, and then I had to learn web design, and that’s … so one thing led to another, but it’s all started with, I think, my parents setting the foundation for creation, and giving us computers at the early age.

Nick (07:16):

Well you’re joining me from Sweden, and I always take the opportunity when I interview guests of the podcast to find out what their home country’s attitude is towards crypto. So what are the people of Sweden’s attitudes towards crypto right now?

Carl Hagerling (07:30):

So I must say first, Sweden is amazing. I love this country, and I will probably stay here until I die, but they don’t like crypto. I don’t know why they’re so afraid of it, but I cannot have it like a Swedish bank. All banks blocked crypto trading, so I cannot … for a while I had no salary, because I couldn’t bring it to Sweden. So I don’t know, I had to live on my wife’s salary. Yeah, it was tough because I couldn’t get my salary, and it’s so frustrating and whatever I do, I feel like I’m a criminal right now working for a corrupt project, but it’s nothing illegal about it, and I understand that they are afraid of people trading weapons, and money being black or not clean, but it’s affecting a lot of other people also doing good things, trying to make great products. So I hope things will be better here moving on.

Nick (08:33):

Carl, what can you tell us about then, some of the work you did professionally in your design career?

Carl Hagerling (08:38):

So in the town where I started industrial design, it’s Lund, and that’s where Sony Mobile or Ericsson had their headquarters, and this was during the time when the mobile industry, this was exploding and I think, Sony Mobile was the second biggest producer of mobile phones after Nokia, so it was a major place for industrial design of phones, and they went all creative there.

(09:04):

So I joined Sony Mobile and it was such an amazing time to be there. It was the same time as they launched the iPhone, and it was interesting to just be there, where people at Sony Mobile, they were nervous, but still they tried to push away the threat and they didn’t want to really see it, and it was a too expensive phone and they didn’t see it, but I felt it, that this changed the world.

(09:37):

Then I joined a hardware design agency called Hareide Design, and it was the former chief designer at Saab Automobile who led that, Einar Hareide. And there I had an opportunity to design big scale, projects and I always imagined myself to design smaller pieces of objects, but here I was designing train interiors, truck fronts, wheels, and transportation design. And it was really challenging because there’s a lot of people that’s really passionate about transportation design and I wasn’t one of them, but maybe that was good, because I came with another point of view. So it’s challenging and I learned a lot, and I met great people and … yeah, if you collaborate with great people, you grow yourself as well.

(10:35):

After working at Hareide Design, I formed my own agency called Hagerling Forum, based off my last name, Hagerling, and then I did that for some years. I just went all creative. It felt like I would have been … not in a bubble … but I just want to try all creative fields out, and other fields as well. I just did everything I wanted.

(10:58):

I had 50 clients at the same time, and I created a furniture brand, where I started to manufacture and sell shelves. I did a lot of furniture concepts. I was awarded the Breakthrough of the Year by the Swedish Magazine. I got a big office space, so I rent out office spaces to other creatives, so we had this environment where we just did a lot of different things. I had big clients, and one big client was IKEA, and I did a lot of furniture for them and a lot of objects and garden tools, and a lot of them are still sold.

(11:38):

Everything worked out very well there for a while. I had everything. I had my house, I had my car, my lovely wife and kids, and work, but I guess I would like to challenge myself even more. So my wife and I, we started talking about what can we do next? And we talk about moving abroad, because she does research within breast cancer, and thanks to her, we had the opportunity to go to move to San Francisco, and I got my visa through her, so thank you, amazing wife Katarina.

(12:18):

And my intent moving there was to work for Google. So things change in life, and in the same building we moved to, there was another Swedish guy, and he recommended me to apply for this job at MuleSoft. I never heard about the MuleSoft at the time, but I thought, “Okay, I’ll give it a shot,” and when I worked there, it was an atmosphere I haven’t never been in before, and it was creative, it was warm, and I really enjoyed my time there and I met great people. And some of the people there was actually like Yaniv Tal, and I remember the first day I met him, I saw something in there him, and I think the same evening went to a bar, and I said, “We’re going to do great things together, and we’re going to build-“.

(13:12):

And then it was more about React systems and build components in React to create a nice platform for MuleSoft, and we did that, but I didn’t expect that we would do even more greatness together. And at that time at MuleSoft, that’s when I found my love in designing complex data systems or platforms.

(13:38):

And then Tesla reached out to me and asked if I would like to join their team, and it was so hard to say no to that because it was more compelling product, I thought, at the time because I was going to be the responsible for their UX on the energy side. And growing up, our family was one of the first families in Sweden who were having solar panels on the roof. My father is really into green energy.

(14:12):

And here I had the opportunity to work at Tesla in the forefront on their [inaudible 00:14:16] and lead app, and the user experience, so it was too hard to say no to that. And at Tesla it was so great people, smart engineers, but I never felt creatively that I’ve built it. It was not that atmospheric with other creatives. I was more doing it by myself. I had the opportunity to work with a great intern, but I wanted more creative challenges, and then Facebook reached out to me. And they said, “We are starting up this lab, like the Moonshot Factory, where I’m going to be responsible for the industrial design and the UX design, crossover.”

(15:02):

And I got to work with some of the best creatives, former IDEO employees, and it felt like, “Okay, I’m here in San Francisco with the most creative minds, and I have the opportunity to work in the forefront with other creative minds and learn so much.” So from so going from Tesla, where I worked more in isolation, to work at Facebook, where I can grow as a creative much more, it was hard to say no to that. And it’s … I don’t know, its fun … but now looking back in the mirror, now I work in an industry where Facebook is seen as one of the nightmares with their centralized data, and they control your data. And I guess I’ve been naive in a way. At the time I privatized exploring my creativity more, and grew as a creative.

(15:54):

But I still think like what Facebook done, they have received a lot of bad reputation, and they’re doing great stuff also, and that’s a lot of times that’s not seen by the industry, or people or after the Cambridge Analytical scandal. And at the time, I worked for Facebook, Yaniv, Jannis, and Brandon, they kicked off The Graph, and we talked about me joining them.

(16:21):

So the first thing I did, I moved back to Sweden, left San Francisco, and back in Sweden, I joined The Graph.

Nick (18:01):

What is a guy with a lot of background, high level background, at Facebook, Tesla, working on projects for IKEA, what does a guy you think about crypto when you first encounter it?

Carl Hagerling (18:14):

So the first time I encountered crypto, it was not like I was like a Bitcoin owner. It was like when Yaniv pitched the idea behind The Graph, and expressed to index blockchain data. And I even didn’t even think that it would be a problem back then. But he pulled me into it. He pitched it really well. He’s really a visionary, is a great mind and person.

(18:42):

And what I think about crypto. So maybe it’s similar to IKEA. Their slogan is democratic design or something like that. And like crypto and decentralized protocols, they it’s democratic. Its gives the users ownership. They own the data. And anyone can participate. As long as you have internet. It’s a more reliable and it’s cheaper. And yeah, I’m not a technical expert. So I don’t know the technology behind but I believe in so much. Because it’s Yeah, democratic.

(19:18):

So the first time I encountered crypto, it was not like I was a Bitcoin owner. It was like when Jan pitched the idea behind The Graph and he expressed the to index blockchain data and I even didn’t even think that it would be a problem back then, but he pulled me into it, he pitched it really well. He’s really visionary, he’s a great mind and person. And what I think about crypto, so maybe it’s similar to IKEA. Their slogan is democratic design, or something like that, and crypto and decentralized protocols, it’s democratic, it gives the users ownership, they own the data, and anyone can participate, as long as you have internet. It’s more reliable and it’s cheaper. And yeah, I’m not a technical expert so I don’t know the technology behind, but I believe in it so much, because it’s democratic.

Nick (19:20):

So what can you tell us about the energy of the founders early on, before The Graph even came along? What can you tell us about those early days and, I guess, entrepreneurial vision?

Carl Hagerling (19:29):

So we have great minds. If I go to Yaniv, he is a visionary. He has his finger on the pulse, 30 years from now. He feels what’s going on. And Brandon, that is so thoughtful, and does the research, and he’s one of the smartest person I’ve ever met, and a great human being. And Jannis, who’s the best engineer I worked with back end, and a great person, and also so humble, in a way.

(20:09):

And I think that mixture is creating this … they are very humble, and smart, and expecting the best from everyone, and I think that pulling out the best capacity of everyone, at least that’s what I feel. And I think that’s rare in the industry, to be able to work for … it’s a mature company, they have people working for it, it’s mature, they have a lot of experience, but they’re still humble and open and friendly, and that’s really nice to be in that culture.

Nick (20:45):

Were you nervous to make the move from traditional business with, again a lot of credentials, doing really great design work, into crypto, which is really a new sector, and a startup with some guys that you met here in San Francisco?

Carl Hagerling (21:01):

I was never afraid, because I trusted Yaniv, Brandon, and Jannis so much. So I wouldn’t say I was afraid at all. The only thing is when you have to explain to the people around you what you’re working with, and they … just question marks, and maybe they would expect you to do a more safe career move.

Nick (21:25):

So Carl, how would you describe your role at The Graph and Edge & Node, what you do on a day-to-day basis there?

Carl Hagerling (21:31):

So it’s a work, in a way, it’s a bit in transition, because I’ve been in IC for a long time, just producing content, and as the team grows … I have a great team helping me out, so I’m more of a manager now, so I’m going from IC to a CME manager. And so my day-to-day life is more like … I start the morning with a great coffee, I need that coffee. Then after the coffee, I check Slack, because the great thing about different time zones is we work 24 hours a day, it feels like. So when I woke up, I have a lot of questions in Slack or in my mail or in Figma, as we use as a design tool. I check all comments, try to provide feedback. That takes, more or less, half my day, just providing feedback to different work streams, and just generate the ideas and proposals, “Maybe? What if? What if we do this way? What do we give to this?” So I try to be as creative and open as possible.

(22:35):

And then the next part is creating new features, new exciting projects, because it’s so much things going on at The Graph that I would like to tell you about that’s coming out, but I guess we could talk about that in maybe one year, but that’s my day-to-day life.

Nick (22:54):

So I want to talk about the brand of The Graph. You joined early. Obviously Brandon, Yaniv, Jannis, they’re all coming up with what I would understand is the product and the technology, but they need a guy like you to come along with, I presume, input on the UX, but also building the brand.

(23:15):

So can you take us through your thought process? What was going through your mind? You’ve already mentioned you like the idea of being a designer for complex systems, and so this is very complex in a lot of ways, The Graph is. So talk to us about that challenge, and what your original vision as you were thinking through The Graph for its brand?

Carl Hagerling (23:34):

So when joining The Graph, I had the luxury, because we had nothing, we had no logo, we had no brand. It was just the name, The Graph. And that is a luxury to be able to shape everything. It’s like a white canvas, but that could also be terrifying and limiting. It’s like, do whatever you want, where do you start? You have to anchor yourself somewhere.

(24:02):

So that’s the first thing I did, anchor myself. And then together with the other … it was just Yaniv and Brandon and Jannis at the time, and also Rodrigo was a great mind. Then I formed some keywords. What is it all about? And it could be solid, it could be adventurous, pioneers, soft words like that, but one of the words was infrastructure, and I pivoted towards infrastructure, and I saw it felt like The Graph has always been around, even it if it was new, because it felt so … not monolithic but solid, and it feels like almost like the matrix. Everything around us is the matrix and you’re in it, and I saw The Graph similar.

(24:57):

So I went back in time, and looked in old civilizations. And because the infrastructure cannot connect them and defines them, like roads, waters systems, and that drove me towards the Aztec civilization. And it was something about that, I think, looked at just gravitating towards me, just so much inspiration there. So I create this kind of pattern, inspired by the hieroglyphic carvings, architecture, and art, that felt like … I don’t know … there’s a pattern of communication of small digits floating into a system, and that was the starting point. They also have a [inaudible 00:25:51] in the Aztec civilization for symmetry, I don’t remember the name for him, but the God of Duality, and the two things … it also had, everything has two sides, and that’s also I really like that visually.

(26:09):

But then it was not just about the infrastructure and the duality. It was also about that they had a really strong sense for astronomy, and the space, and the calendar, so they look down in the infrastructure, but it wasn’t looked up in space, out in the stars, and that kind of dynamic … space and old. So space is like the future, forward, and then you have the infrastructure, that’s kind of the past. So the old meets the new.

(26:48):

So it feels like it’s always been around, but it’s facing the future. So if you look at the colors come … they’re purple, blue, that comes from space, and you have the iconography that comes more from the Aztec hieroglyphics, and if you look at the logo, it’s actually like a planet, with a spaceship and a moon orbiting around.

(27:17):

So that is the story with the brand of The Graph more or less.

Nick (27:21):

So you said originally when you were coming up with the idea for the brand and had the white canvas, you had to anchor yourself. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by you needed to anchor yourself?

Carl Hagerling (27:33):

Yeah, because I had to anchor myself, otherwise I could create whatever. The color spectrum, it could be everything from red to green, but I had to find a story to connect with, that felt honest to the value of the company and that’s why I had to anchor myself.

Nick (27:51):

Carl, what are some of the challenges then, in addition to a blank canvas, which you said is a great opportunity but also a little bit of a challenge for a designer, what is the additional challenge of trying to create a brand and imagery and messaging for something that is quite complex like The Graph?

Carl Hagerling (28:09):

So what I’m facing right now, the heart for me is consistency, and brand is all about consistency. It’s like Graph is a person, and a person, it could change their personality but it doesn’t make the change of the personality from one week to another. Maybe it takes some years and you can change, slowly change, and when it was just me, I produced all content, because we were much smaller a year ago, but now we’re bigger, and we collaborate with more people. The community is big, so the brand scales up, and that means that I have to define the brand better, and this is something we need, because we’ve been working a lot, hard to create a product that’s usable, and it demands a lot. So what’s challenging for me now is to define the brand better, and you can do this in the brand book with some style guides, so you can easily explain to other people, “This is the rules for our personality, our brand.” So that is a challenge right now for me.

Nick (29:21):

You say that a brand is like a person, it has a personality. Let’s play with that idea just for a second here. If The Graph brand became personified, and this individual walked into the room, how would you describe or how would you let us know what this person is like?

Carl Hagerling (29:37):

So that is a great question, and I think we should talk more about it internally. But what I imagine is, The Graph is a smart person, that’s thoughtful, but not cocky in any way. Like I mentioned, basically a little bit of the founders, humble and joyful. Pioneers. Like a humble pioneer, maybe casual, but also a little bit well-dressed up. It’s also how you talk as a person. So maybe it’s like a person that can speak for himself or herself really well, and a nice person.

Nick (30:18):

Is that person optimistic?

Carl Hagerling (30:19):

Yes, very, and brave, and also high in integrity, and stick to his or her beliefs.

Nick (31:03):

Carl, I’d be curious to know if you ever had any hesitation about using the space theme for brand development or creation of The Graph, when a lot of people on Twitter, or certainly in the crypto space at large, talk about mooning when it comes to price discussion and things like that. Were you nervous about any correlation there?

Carl Hagerling (31:25):

No, actually, I never thought about it. And maybe it’s because I’m Swedish, I never heard the expression, but my big concern is space could be a little bit cliche, like you’re surfing the web, this old cliche, and here we are with sometimes using an astronaut on a snowboard in space or something, or a wakeboard in space, and I would rather go back little bits more to earth that we are looking up. So we feel more grounded than being up in space, but I like the contrast of being on the ground and looking up in space.

Nick (32:05):

Carl, you leveraged Aztec civilization to create the brand, and I love what you said about the logo, and this tie between infrastructure and space, staying grounded, but looking out to potential and opportunity. What do you think a project like The Graph, a brand like The Graph, says about civilization presently, where we’re going, what we’re working on, what our opportunities for the future are?

Carl Hagerling (32:36):

That’s great question, and I think we’re creating the new civilization. web3, crypto blockchain is a new civilization that’s more democratic, as I mentioned, and it’s more fair. We don’t see color, we don’t see race, we see what you can provide to the space, to the protocol, or the project. We are all about collaboration and openness and transparency, and that’s value pillars that I would like to stand on and build the next civilizations.

Nick (33:17):

As a designer, Carl, do you have any consternation, does it make you nervous or upset, that everything at The Graph is open-source, and so your logo and all the work and effort you put into that, it shows up everywhere on people’s Twitter feeds, on people’s website, or was that just part of understanding this new environment, and that this would come along with it? How have you thought through that?

Carl Hagerling (33:42):

That’s really interesting. Yeah, because people do build on top of what I did. This is what I started in a way, and in the beginning we had no … for example, no character that’s belonged to our brand, but then I put the astronaut on the jobs page, and the community just took that and brought it to themselves, and then just ran with it. So it was like astronauts everywhere. If you looked at this Discord and on Twitter, everything was rockets and astronauts in space, and I guess I just went with it, and continued the space theme, and pushed for that even harder, but something maybe that disappeared was the Aztec foundation that I said, and now it’s more about the space, and I guess things like that happen when you have a strong community, and in the crypto, when you build on top of each other, and maybe this ties back to what I said earlier, collaboration is amazing, and it’s powerful, and it brings us further. It’s like keeping your ideas by yourself or sharing them.

Nick (35:00):

So I want to ask you a follow-up question about The Graph community. So as somebody who met the founders and you being early on in the whole project, creating the brand out of nothing, what’s it been like for you seeing this community build up and get so engaged in the project?

Carl Hagerling (35:17):

Yeah, so I’ve been in many … I worked at different companies, but I’ve never been in a company like Edge & Node or The Graph, because it’s been such a momentum since day one, and such an interest in our product, and the community members are … it’s a vibrant community, and it’s like an engine, it’s encouraging you, you are excited, you’re joining, you’re with them, and that keeps me up every morning. That makes me just work harder and do more great things and do better things for them, because they deserve it, and I push myself to do better designs.

Nick (35:59):

You and I met each other a little while ago. We had to go through some planning and scheduling to get this recording. A lot of things have happened since then. Curation launched, other big announcements with core dev teams. As you look back on all the creative things you’ve done at The Graph from present to when you started, what are some of the things you’re most proud of as a designer, as someone behind the build?

Carl Hagerling (36:24):

So the things I’m always most proud of, they’ve never been built or they haven’t been launched. It’s always the next thing you’re most proud of, at least that’s how I work, and I can’t mention, but we have great things coming out and planned, but then maybe what I’m most proud of, maybe it’s just be able to work with such great people, because they challenge me every day, and it’s such a hard space to be in, it’s so complex, so it’s always interesting. And I would also say that I’m really proud of my team, and all the new employees at The Graph, and I really hope that we can keep the culture that we have, and that we have such so great talents within the team, and together I think we set up to create greatness.

Nick (37:25):

Carl, if you zoom out and you look at all of crypto … so not just The Graph, but all of these different companies that fit within this space … what’s your sensibilities regarding the design that’s going into it? I’m nowhere near the designer you are, but I love graphic design, I’m very interested in brand design, and a lot of the things that you get to work on every day, and it seems to me that the crypto space is very unique in this regard, and the different things people are coming up with. Are you seeing the same thing?

Carl Hagerling (37:56):

Yes, I am. So what I think is interesting is, it’s a new space, it is like visionaries starting those projects, and it’s so many interesting products out there, and I think there’re also like a visionary when it comes to design, and they’re pushing it, and some projects are going really well financially, so they have resources to hire really great designers. So I think that’s the combination there, of being brave and having the ability to hire great creatives, push the space really well.

(38:32):

Something I think we can work more on is maybe UX patterns. I think we, as a creative in the industry, we can do a better job with the UX patterns, because I know for new users it’s a friction point. They have to get a wallet, they have to get some tokens or ETH, and before be able to participate, so it’s a friction point there. So could we unify that and all the transaction, and create so it feels more safe, reliable, so you don’t feel afraid performing a transaction? Yes, I would like to work on that, unifying the UX patents for web3 transactions.

Nick (39:20):

Carl, I really appreciate the opportunity to have met with you, and I was so anxious to meet you. I admire all your work. I really wanted to meet the mind and the team behind The Graph brand and its personality, and so it was a real thrill for me when you agreed to do this. I think it would be very interesting to ask the guy that helped launch the brand and the brand personality, what his long-term vision for The Graph is?

Carl Hagerling (39:44):

As I said earlier, I think The Graph is a democratic way of handling data, and I think everybody should be able to be part of that movement. I want to make The Graph a better experience for new users, to make it easier for them to delegate, to curate, because that’s something everyone can do, and I think it’s so much opportunity there. And also when we have all the data, collected more and more data at The Graph, you can do crossovers between subgraphs, pull data from other subgraphs, combine them, create your own subgraphs, more and more people can create their own subgraphs, and it’s going to be a vibrant platform of information that’s useful, accurate, and reliable. And I believe in that so much.