GRTiQ Podcast: 192 Steve Kim

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Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:00:17):

The reason why I wrote about The Graph is because The Graph is the irreplaceable component of this industry, because indexing data from blockchain is the most difficult thing that you can do.

Nick (00:01:02):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today I’m speaking with Steve Kim, co-founder and CEO at Four Pillars, a global blockchain research firm based in Seoul, South Korea. Four Pillars is influential throughout the blockchain space, known for its deep knowledge and research of key infrastructure and unique tech emerging within web3.

Steve’s academic background includes a degree in economics from Penn State University, where he also pursued a minor in political philosophy. Steve’s passion for blockchain emerged from his interest in Austrian economics and the philosophical underpinnings of decentralization inspired by thinkers like Friedrich Hayek.

During this interview, Steve shares his incredible personal journey, beginning with his early life in South Korea. We then dive into his studies in the US, his pivot towards economics, and how some insight into financial hardship motivated him to explore blockchain tech and everything that’s going on in web3.

Steve’s reflections on the ideological and technological transformations within the crypto space provides unique insights into the intersection of economics and technology. We also discuss his vision for Four Pillars, the importance of interoperability in web3, his research on The Graph, and his experiences writing influential research that bridges Eastern and Western perspectives on blockchain development. I started the conversation by asking Steve to tell us about where he’s from.

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:02:26):

Yeah. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to actually tell me about myself. I was born and raised in Korea until I was in middle school. I wanted to be a singer, because I was into all those K pop idol, and I also wanted to become like one, and my father actually hated it so much.

(00:02:45):

My father instead, he suggested to study abroad, because in Korea, as you know, it’s very tough to become a singer, and also it’s really tough to actually do study and do singing at the same time. My father suggested me, “Hey, son. If you go to the United States, actually you can study and then you can actually sing as a part of extracurricular.”

(00:03:11):

I thought that that was a great idea to actually satisfy my father and at the same time my dream as a teenager. That’s the moment that I decide to go to the United States to study, and I still do a lot of singing and I always go to karaoke to actually sing whenever I’m very stressed out. This is my daily hobbies as well. That was how I ended up coming to the United States as a teenager.

Nick (00:03:37):

It’s amazing. I’ve had a few guests on who have that musical background and a few that have said they love singing, so I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you, as someone who’s passionate about singing and really loves music, who are your favorite bands? Who are your favorite singers?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:03:52):

Sure. Back in the day, I was watching Michael Jackson’s music video and Michael Jackson’s concert video. That videos actually motivated me to become a singer, because I was kind of shocked that people are so passionate about his moves and how a single person can change the world.

(00:04:12):

That was actually great motivation for me. I was not into singing specifically, but I was kind of into Michael Jackson’s influence over people, and I was kind of fascinated and shocked at how a single person can make the world different. That was a great motivation for me and I was thinking of how can I become a person like Michael Jackson?

(00:04:37):

That was the moment that I started to explore the career as a singer, and then I found out Stevie Wonder, his singing was so impactful and all the people were kind of impacted by his singing. That’s why I changed my English name to Steve, because I was kind of into Stevie Wonder’s career and his influence and his singing skill and vocal skill and his aspiration for music. Stevie Wonder is definitely my favorite one. As I started playing guitar, Maroon 5 and Muse were my favorite bands. I started playing guitar and sing their songs as well.

Nick (00:05:15):

Thank you for that. That’s really cool and I love the inspiration behind the name. What is your actual Korean name? It’s one I don’t even dare try to pronounce, but respectfully, what is it?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:05:24):

It’s a called Namwoong. Korean name is kind of very hard to pronounce, and especially my name, even Koreans cannot pronounce my name. But during my teenager age, my Korean friends actually tried to make fun of me on my name, because my name is quite unique. I think you cannot find any other Korean name that is similar or same as mine in Korean, because it’s really unique.

(00:05:50):

When I was young, I was unhappy with my name, because other people are trying to make fun of me because it’s very hard to pronounce. But it is Namwoong and it has a Chinese letter as well. Nam means the south and Woong means the bear, so my Korean name is not suitable for crypto market, because crypto market hates bear.

Nick (00:06:13):

Well, I appreciate you sharing that, and it’s a great name. If Koreans have a difficulty pronouncing it, I’m definitely not going to ever get the chance. As you mentioned, at the advice of your father, you decided to go stateside. You came to the United States and studied economics at Penn State University. As you think back in time then to why you chose to pursue a degree in economics, what were you thinking about at that time and what were you envisioning for a career by pursuing a degree in economics?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:06:41):

My father was involved in politics and he actually told me all things about politics when I was in elementary school. He was trying to have a conversation with me about the current president of the United States and current president of Korea, and how they’re dealing with their politics, and I was almost brainwashed to actually follow the recent political situations in Korea and the United States.

(00:07:05):

I dreamed about becoming a singer, but as soon as I get into high school in the United States, I was kind of fascinated by the United States founding history, their libertarianism and their classical liberalism. Those ideologies are really influential to me back in my high school days. Then I was kind of thinking, “How can I become a political theorist?”

(00:07:29):

Then I was about to choose political philosophy as my major, but my professors and my parents and my friends in South Korea, they were kind of worrying about me ended up becoming jobless, because political philosophers are really, really hard to actually find proper job. My father actually recommended me to major in economics, because economists actually can find a job in society. That’s how I ended up choosing economics as a major, and then I minored in actually the political philosophy in Penn State.

Nick (00:08:08):

When you think about the training that you receive as a student of economics, and I’ve had again other guests on the podcast that studied economics, you get a very specialized training and viewpoint of the world and how things work. How do you use that in relationship to your work in blockchain and crypto? We’re going to talk a lot more about your firm and the things you’re working on, but just as a basis point, does it impact the way you approach the industry and the work you do?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:08:34):

Yeah. For sure. I learned a lot at Pan State, but I was following the different path that other economists that don’t follow, because I was kind of into the school of thought that major economists actually hate, which is Austrian economics, which is a very minor school of thought in economics part.

(00:08:55):

Friedrich Hayek, who’s really influential figure in crypto, he was talking about the competing currencies and privatization of money back in 1960s. I was a passionate follower of Austrian school. My studies on Hayek, my studies on Mises, and my studies on Rothbard, that actually inspired me to find what’s a better alternative for the dollars.

(00:09:22):

That drew me into blockchain spaces and Bitcoin spaces especially, and that actually motivated me to study about Bitcoin. I was kind of very shocked about this thing called Bitcoin, because I was thinking this is digital currencies, and how can they not mint it to have an endless Bitcoin number?

(00:09:43):

How can they have fixed supply if it’s digital currencies? That’s the moment that I tried to figure it out, and then that’s the moment that I found out the technology for the blockchain. I was always following not the mainstream path, but always trying to become a critical thinker.

(00:10:04):

My professors were really mad about me, because they were Keynesian. They’re always in favor of central banking. They’re always in favor of Federal Reserve, and I hate Federal Reserve and I want Federal Reserve to end. I want the US politicians to actually audit the Fed. My professors were not satisfied with my opinions and my explanations of Bitcoin and other gold standard and stuff.

(00:10:29):

Actually, my major itself in college did not impact me to go into this career, but I learned mainstream economies when I was in Penn State. But at the same time, whenever I have free time, I really enjoyed exploring Austrian economics and Chicago school from Milton Friedman, and those libertarian thinkers actually got me into this space.

Nick (00:10:53):

I’m going to ask you a little bit more about that, but I want to also ask this question about then how you think about the emergence of something like crypto and blockchain. It’s a question I ask pretty commonly on the podcast, but do you see then the emergence of everything that’s happening with crypto as an economic type of response from people in the world, or do you see it on the other hand as an evolution in technology?

(00:11:20):

This is just the next step that one would expect as humanity builds and kind of improves tech. Or I guess there’s another thought that maybe this is a revolution against the sins of web2. We’re sick of the monopolies of web2, and this was a revolution against that. Kind of three things, and it could be of course, something else, but how do you sort of place the emergence of crypto?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:11:43):

At the beginning, it was more of an ideological evolution, because as you know, Satoshi actually, he wrote very evolutionary phrases at the genesis on Bitcoin. All the Bitcoiners are an anarchist and libertarian anarcho-capitalist back in the days, and I was deeply influenced by all those libertarian and Bitcoiners who are also libertarian.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]Actually, Bitcoin movement were very revolutionary and ideological movement back in 2014 and 2015. Now it is becoming more of an economic movement right now, because especially in Korea, a lot of people are investing in Bitcoin, because they think that it is not worth saving their money into their savings account.

(00:12:30):

Bitcoin’s performance is much better than any other Korean stocks and any other non-stock, any other Dow stocks. They’re trying to consider Bitcoin as an alternative to become and preserve their value, preserve their money. It is more becoming an economic alternative to their lives.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]But in early day, it was more of an ideological and revolutionary kind of movement to actually fight against the central banking system, more holistic systems of currency. Nowadays, to me, it’s more of technological changes, because I personally believe that internet actually introduced us a way to communicate with people no matter where they are and no matter what kind of background they have.

(00:13:18):

But I think there were no incentives for us to actually connect with people whom I don’t have any background whatsoever and I don’t know in person. But I think crypto is playing a role in this, that crypto is trying to align people’s interest in global scale. There hasn’t been no single thing like crypto that can actually align people’s interests globally.

(00:13:45):

I think that crypto is now playing a role that internet could not do, any other ideology, any other incentive, any other fandom could not do, could not address. But crypto as a tool, people can unite into the one organization and they can actually align their interests.

(00:14:04):

When I was in Japan, I met a bunch of crypto folks and I did not know who they are, but I did not know what kind of background they’re from, but we were talking about Solana. We were talking about Bitcoin for five hours and without any kind of background knowledge whatsoever about them.

(00:14:23):

I realized that crypto is the only tool that can align the interests of just random people, and then internet enabled us to actually communicate with those people in borderless way. Now I consider crypto and blockchain as a moral and technological advancement, but back in the day it was more a revolutionary and ideological movement.

Nick (00:16:01):

When you mentioned these different schools within the discipline of economics, so you mentioned Austrian school, which appealed to you, Chicago school. There’s also the Keynesian school.

Do you think some of those early originators of those ideas, so for example, Hayek, do you think they would recognize their economic theory in the emergence of something like crypto if they were alive today? Would they say, “See, I told you this is exactly how or what we should be doing with relationship to monetary policy or currency?”

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:16:20):

Yeah, definitely. Within the Austrian school, each thinker has different thought and different perspective on competing currency. I think Hayek has the most radical perspective on currency. Rothbard and Mises, they’re more favor of a gold standard. I think if they were alive today, Rothbard might have been criticizing Bitcoin, because he’s more like a Peter Schiff.

(00:16:48):

He might love gold more than Bitcoin. But I think if Hayek were alive today, he’ll have been advocating Bitcoin as a better alternative to the dollar system, maybe the better alternative to gold. Most Austrian schools now are in favor of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin can be the way that they can envision where the free market actually chooses which one is better currencies and which one is not. I think Austrian school, those thinkers will have been advocating most of them, but I think radical gold standard guy will have been very criticizing of the Bitcoin.

Nick (00:17:29):

Returning then back to your personal story here, you went to Penn State University, got a degree in economics, a minor in politics. Upon graduation, it seems to me you kind of got your start in venture capital and working for some large corporations. Talk to us about that period of your life, what you did after graduation and how you got started professionally.

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:17:49):

It’s kind of very dramatic story, to be honest, because paying tuition as a foreigner in the United States is really, really expensive. I actually remember spending more than 50K per year for the tuitions themself, and I also try make my living. I remember we spent 70K per year if you want to maintain your life as a college student in the United States as a foreigner.

(00:18:16):

Then as soon as my second year end, my father’s business went bankrupt, so I could not continue my academic career in the States, so I decided to come back to Korea to figure out how can I continue and how can I come back to the United States to actually continue my academic career. Then also as a Korean citizen, I have to serve military for two years, so I just thought that maybe this is a good timing for me to actually join military.

(00:18:49):

It was 2017 that I joined Korean military, and then I tried to figure it out after military, how can I earn some money to actually afford my tuition and to continue my academic career? While I was in military services, I decided to actually go deeper in crypto, go deeper in blockchain.

(00:19:14):

I studied. I read all those white papers and all those technical papers while I was in military, and then I like to write things. Whenever I try to understand things, I try to write things about them. That’s the moment that I started writing about Bitcoin and blockchain to actually have a better understanding of them.

(00:19:35):

Then people at Hyundai actually read my article and they tried to DM me and then said, “How old are you and what kind of background do you have?” I just tell them, “I’m currently in military, so I cannot join Hyundai, but I’m more than happy to give you guys a comment and advisory and so on.”

(00:19:55):

That’s the moment that we actually started the relationship, and then as soon as my military time ended, they tried to hire me. There was the moment that I ended up being hired at Hyundai, and that was 2019, and then I was in charge of blockchain investment at Hyundai BS&C. That’s how it happened. My writings have been really helpful.

Nick (00:20:18):

It sounds like that was a pivot moment in your life. There’s a lot of things going on there in that story, and I think sometimes those types of experience can make or break a person where either they get stronger and get steam and momentum to pursue their goals, or some people just can’t fight through the friction. Was it that type of an experience for you, and if it was, how did you push through it all?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:20:43):

I told my father a few days ago that, “I was kind of glad that you actually went bankrupt, because that gave me a lot of opportunity at the same time.” Because if my father were super rich as my father used to, then I would not have been exploring blockchain industry as aggressively as I did in 2017.

(00:21:07):

When my father told me that he could not afford my tuition anymore, I just thought that, “Okay. My life is mine and my life is independent from my father’s. If my father cannot afford my tuition, then I have to live myself and I have to live my life as an adult from now on.”

(00:21:29):

That gave me a lot of maturity as a person. That was the biggest lesson that I have ever learned in my life, and that was the moment that I became truly independent. That gave me a lot of motivation, a lot of powers to actually come through those difficulties.

(00:21:48):

If I think back to past and when was the time that I was very motivated and I was very passionate about what I’m doing, it was the moment that my father actually told me that he went bankrupt and then I have to live myself. Then that moment, it was sad because of my father, because he was very powerful person and he was very rich at the same time wealthy.

(00:22:12):

He’s not anymore, so I was kind of sad about my father, but I was not sad about myself. I was kind of, “Okay. This might be the opportunity for me to actually become independent adult, to pursue my own dream and do my things by myself, not relying on my father, not relying on my parents in both economic or in spiritual way.”

(00:22:34):

Now I became truly independent from anybody else, and then I do myself. I get shit done. That was a really great moment, and I think I did not perceive that event as a negative event, more of a positive thing. Now I have freedom, because whenever my father tried to pay me tuition, I was thinking that my life is relying on my father. If my father want me to do a lawyer thing or my father want me to do different thing, I have to choose it because my father afforded the tuition for me.

(00:23:10):

I was kind of in debt, but now I’m debt free. If I have to afford myself, that means I have freedom to do whatever I want to do. His bankruptcy actually unshackled my slavery kind of thing, so it was kind of really amazing moment for me, and that was the moment that I start to become a truly free independent person to pursue my own dream.

Nick (00:23:36):

With that independence then and that freedom comes a whole list of things that you can pursue, things that you can get passionate about. You decided then to pursue a career working in blockchain, working in web3. Without talking specifically about what you were doing, can you explain what it was about pursuing that path that appealed to you more than maybe a more traditional approach?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:24:04):

I was always in favor of trying things that nobody actually is doing. Even when I was young, I hated following other people and I hated mimicking other successful people in terms of career, in terms of studies and stuff. Back in 2017 and 2016, crypto was considered as a scam.

(00:24:28):

Even in Korea, if someone says, “Okay. I’m going to all in in crypto, I’m going to go all in in blockchain.” They were considered as a fool. I thought that if people think that pursuing a career in blockchain space is foolish, I might have just followed the path because nobody is doing it.

(00:24:49):

That’s why I joined the crypto movement in 2016. At the same time, to me, crypto is more of an ideological, political, philosophical career, but it was the only career that I can actually talk about philosophy. I can talk about governance, I can talk about economy, and I can talk about how can we fight against the institutional and traditional banking system and political system.

(00:25:16):

It was very ambitious movement back in the day, so I was kind of glad that I could join the early days of blockchain, because now nobody talks about governance, nobody talks about revolutionary movement. But back in the day, everyone was talking about how can we fight against central banking system and so on.

(00:25:37):

It was very energetic, electrifying even to actually become part of that movement back in 2016. It was more of an electrifying moment. I was in the libertarian movement in the United States, but the problem that I felt is that ideology itself is not enough motivation for them.

(00:25:59):

They need a financial incentive to become much more passionate, and Bitcoin was that financial incentive that align people much more strongly than the ideology. I was into libertarian movement, but I was kind of feel like people are quite passionate, but they’re not passionate enough to actually do their actions.

(00:26:23):

But with Bitcoin, ETH, all this kind of cryptocurrencies, their financial incentives, they’re financially aligned, and that gave them more motivation, more power, more passion about their movement. I felt like this might be the next ideological, but with a much stronger force, so I could maybe change the world. That was very electrifying experiences for me.

Nick (00:26:50):

We’re talking today, Steve, because eventually you go on to found Four Pillars, which we’re going to talk about today. But before we get there, before you founded Four Pillars, you co-founded A41, which was a blockchain infrastructure company. What can you tell us about that first experience you had there as a founder in blockchain working at A41 and starting a blockchain infrastructure company? What was that experience like?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:27:15):

It was a very memorable moment, because I was at Hyundai and then I was writing a bunch of my thesis paper on Solana, Luna and stuff back in 2020. John, who’s now the CEO at A41, he actually found out my writing and he thought that my writings are really great, so he just gave me a DM and he tried to hire me, because back in the day, A41 was venture capital. It was not [inaudible 00:27:44] company.

(00:27:45):

He was trying to hire me as one of the investment analysts. I thought that John is a really objective person and he has a lot of network outside Korea as well, so I thought that this will be a really great opportunity for me to actually go outside of Korea and have much more influence.

(00:28:03):

That’s how I joined A41, and then A41 pivot into [inaudible 00:28:09] company back in early 2022, and then I became a co-founder of that company. A41 is really meaningful, and I cannot forget every single day I spend at A41, because A41 gave me a motivation to become a global player.

(00:28:28):

Because when I was in Hyundai, I was kind of thinking of becoming an influential figure within Korean industry. I thought that that will be enough. What John taught me is that Korea is such a small country, and even though in terms of the market cap and GDP Korean market is quite big, but John actually told me that if you’re pursuing your dream within just Korea, I think it’ll not be enough, because blockchain industry is much larger and bigger if you actually go outside of Korea.

(00:29:04):

He actually kept pushing me to become a global kind of figure, and that’s the moment that I started writing about things in English. A41 gave me a courage to push my boundary outside of Korea to write about crypto in English and to share my thoughts with global player.

(00:29:27):

Before A41, I was kind of afraid of encountering all those global players, because I was kind of new. Within Korea, I was influential, but I was not thinking of expending my presence outside Korea, because I was kind of afraid of being criticized by other global players.

(00:29:46):

Maybe I was afraid them saying that, “Oh, Steve, he does not know anything about blockchain. He does not know anything about technology.” I was afraid that, and John actually gave me a lot of courage. “No, no. You have to just go encounter and face them even if they criticize you. Based on that criticism, you have to improve. You have to ameliorate your skills and your thinking skills and your writings.”

(00:30:13):

That was the moment that I, “Okay. I might go global. I might go outside of Korea.” Now when I founded Four Pillars, we started writing things in English and Korean at the same time from day one because, by the time that I co-founded Four Pillars, I was not thinking about Four Pillars becoming a most influential [inaudible 00:30:35] Korea.

(00:30:36):

But I was thinking of, “Okay. Four Pillars go global. We have to become a global player. In order for us to do that, we have to write things in two languages.” A41 gave me that mindset. If you want to be successful, you have to go outside of Korea, and if you want to be successful in crypto, you have to be English native.

(00:30:56):

You have to write things in English, speak things in English, and talk things in English. That mindset and mentality actually have been really helpful. This why I really appreciate my days at A41. I really appreciate how John Park encouraged me to become a global player and push the boundary.

Nick (00:31:21):

What did you learn about establishing thought leadership by virtue of those early writing? Of course, you continue to do that research with the team at Four Pillars, but what can you tell us or tips or tricks or even insights about how you drive interest or, I guess, clicks to content in a very fast-paced and high-interest industry like crypto and web3?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:31:46):

It is really hard gaining attention from people, especially in crypto, because there are a lot of people who are writing and who are posting a lot of content for people. What’s fascinating about crypto is that crypto is all about incentive alignment. Whenever I try to write things, I always see their community.

(00:32:09):

Whether their community are really enthusiastic about their project. Whether their community is really enjoying reading about stuff that they like. After evaluating the community themselves and I try to penetrate into that community by writing things about their projects.

(00:32:30):

For example, back in 2021, for me, the most enthusiastic community was the Luna. All those Lunatics are really passionate and they’re kind of diehard fans of Terra Luna. Even though they collapsed, I think their community were the unprecedented enthusiasm. Their community had really passionate common goal that they try to fight against other established cryptocurrencies.

(00:33:01):

I try to leverage that. I was talking about Terra all day, not because I was big fan of Terra, but because I want to leverage their community to spread my word. That’s the moment that I tried to write about their mechanism and their economics and their model, and that was the moment that I gained a lot of traction from the community on Twitter.

(00:33:25):

Then I looked for another community which was Solana, and I wrote about Solana Thesis and I translated that into English, and I wrote about why I’m a big fan of Solana and stuff, and then that also got a lot of attractions. I think whenever I start writing about things, I always look for their community where they are passionate about topics that I might write and they’re passionate about the things that I might be interested.

(00:33:57):

That is, I think, the number one thing the researchers or the content writers should pursue, whether communities are really enthusiastic or not. If your writings are great, but if your writing topics are about things that people are not interested in and that doesn’t have any enthusiastic community whatsoever, then it is unlikely that it will become a popular content.

(00:34:23):

But if you are writing about things that people are really crazy about and writing things in good way, in really quality way, then I think there might be a higher possibility for your content to be exposed to much more variety of audiences. That was my tactic, because as I said, crypto is all about incentive alignment.

(00:34:49):

If I talk about Sol, all people who have Solana as their asset in their bag might be interested reading it and may be interested in sharing it, because they want to show their bag. If I shill on the behalf of Solana community, and they’re more than happy to share that with other communities as well, because they are aligned.

(00:35:13):

They’re aligned to actually share those kind of show and bull posting about Solana to their community or other community, and same to Luna, and similar to Avalanche. I think the most fascinating thing about crypto is that a lot of people are just so aligned. If I talk about the things that they like, then they’re just automatically sharing thing and they automatically spread the news with other community as well.

(00:35:38):

It’s very organic and it’s very spontaneous, but it’s very volunteerism based community, and I really leverage that aspect. Of course, I have to love it in the first place, but I’ve been enjoying those vibrant community organically spreading the word and spreading my research, spreading my content.

Nick (00:35:59):

Let’s talk more about then Four Pillars. As I said a moment ago, you went on to found Four Pillars, and it’s an amazing company that offers a tremendous amount of value building on all your experience along with other members of your team. But if you don’t mind, just tell us a little bit about what Four Pillars is, what its vision is, and I’d also love to know where the name came from.

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:36:20):

Yeah. A lot of people were curious about why Four Pillars. It was kind of simple back in the day, the Four Pillars, because the founding members were four. There were four founding members, so that’s why. Each of us becomes the huge important pillars of this industry. That was the origin of the name Four Pillars actually came.

(00:36:41):

Four Pillars is just global research firm. We’re writing content and we’re sharing our thought and we’re trying to write things about why this kind of project, this blockchain, this infrastructure matters for this industry and matters at this moment. The problem that I found when I co-founded Four Pillars is that information about blockchain is so fragmented.

(00:37:09):

For English native speakers, English native readers, they can access to bunch of resources, bunch of information. But if you cannot read or if you’re not comfortable reading English content, it might be extremely hard for you to actually find the latest information and what’s happening at the forefront of this industry.

(00:37:30):

I thought that Korea get behind of the United States. A lot of Korean investors, Korean institutional, and Korean builders, they don’t have any idea what is happening right now in the blockchain industry, so I want to keep update the information for Korean people.

(00:37:49):

That was the basic problem statement that I have, information asymmetry. Since we’re aware of what is happening in crypto in real time basis, maybe we can deliver our knowledge to Korean audiences so they can follow up the latest trend of crypto so they will not get left behind in this industry.

(00:38:11):

Then that was the genesis thought of Four Pillars. Maybe we can solve that problem by providing high quality research, not just in English, but in Korean as well. That was the basic problem statement that we have, and Four Pillars is now trying to expand our languages more than two.

(00:38:30):

We’re trying to expand our languages into Japanese, Chinese, because Japan has the same problem. China has the same problem. Any other Southeast Asia country has the same problem. I think Four Pillars has more than one year of experiences of publishing things in two languages. I think we’re the best candidate to actually do three languages or four languages.

(00:38:54):

Now we’re trying to expand our influence into different countries, but our topics are really very tech-heavy as well. Since I’m from infrastructure company, we’re doing a lot of infrastructure research and how this blockchain works in general, how consensus works, how Mempool works, and how program languages in general are different.

(00:39:16):

Solidity or the Move or the Rust. How those languages are playing differently and how these blockchains are having different architecture structure. We’re very deep. We’re not just a PR company or marketing company just saying that, “Oh, this blockchain is great.” But we’re trying to go much deeper than that.

(00:39:37):

We’re trying to explain how this blockchain works in very low level. For the institutional player, they can actually [inaudible 00:39:46]. This blockchain called maybe The Graph. This is how The Graph works. Now I can understand why The Graph is important, because The Graph works differently. I try to explain that not just as a PR company, marketing company. We’re trying to make people to understand the deeper level of the blockchain technologies at the infrastructure level as well.

Nick (00:40:11):

You mentioned The Graph, and as you know, Steve, a lot of listeners of this podcast are enthusiastic about The Graph and very interested in web3 data, web3 data infrastructure. Based on your research and your introduction to The Graph, what can you share about your perspective on the problem The Graph is trying to solve and how important that is for web3?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:40:31):

The reason why I wrote about The Graph is because The Graph is the irreplaceable component of this industry, because indexing data from blockchain is the most difficult thing that you can do, because just blockchain in general are really hard. If you’re trying to access to the raw data on top of blockchain, if you’re just engineer, you have to spend a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of human resources to do it.

(00:41:03):

Plus The Graph is doing is that The Graph is doing on the behalf of those engineers and on the behalf of those front end engineers especially by decentralizing the Indexers. The Graph is basically incentivizing all those participants called Indexers to index the raw data, which is really difficult to index, to index the data for them, for the engineers, for the developers.

(00:41:33):

Whenever blockchain developers are finding the information and data on top of blockchain, they can save much more time. How many blockchains, many crypto projects are actually solving the problem? None. To be honest, not so many. But whenever I found out about The Graph, these guys are really solving the problem, because you guys are not just solving a nonexisting problem and then maybe inflating some tokens.

(00:42:04):

You guys are not doing that. You guys are just having a clear problem statement. Which is really, really, really problematic, because whenever I talk to all the engineers and builders back in 2016, there were no ways for them to actually find good quality data and use that data to actually maybe querying the data to come up with the very front end.

(00:42:30):

They have to spend so much time and so much resources, but nowadays with The Graph, they can easily query the data. As you know, statistics can tell us that major protocol, major applications are now using The Graph to index and to query the data. You can tell The Graph is solving the problems that actually a single person cannot solve, and you guys are doing it by incentivizing those participants to do it voluntarily.

(00:43:02):

That’s the most valuable thing that I saw in this industry, because you guys are a crucial part of this industry. Since you guys are doing really crucial thing and essential thing, I as a researcher, I think that it is worth highlighting you guys and what you guys have done and what kind of path that you guys actually have gone to the public and to the institutional players. How important that what you guys are doing is.

(00:43:27):

That’s my basic perspective. You guys are solving the real problem. You guys are not just shadow boxing. You guys are doing really what the industry needs. That’s the most thing that I appreciate as a researcher. Even as a researcher, I have to use The Graph.

(00:43:44):

You guys are doing the ChatGPT kind of stuff on top of The Graph. As a person who cannot code, I found that really helpful, because I cannot use Dune, I cannot use anything like that. But if I use that ChatGPT kind of application on top of The Graph, I can easily actually query the data. I can easily find the data using that infrastructure. I think what you guys are doing is really innovative and very, very fascinating, and as a researcher I have to cover. There’s no choice.

Nick (00:44:15):

Steve, what do you think is maybe a misunderstanding or something that’s not fully appreciated about countries like Korea and neighboring countries in that region when it comes to driving adoption or innovation in crypto and web3? Is there a lot going on there that people don’t understand or appreciate generally?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:44:38):

During the KVW this year, whenever I met a foreigner, I always asked them, “Why did you come to Korea?” They said, “Oh, Korea is known for speculator and known for the volumes and trading volumes. They’re aggressive traders.” Which is true. I don’t want to deny that. Koreans are really aggressive traders and even speculators.

(00:45:04):

They love to trade. They love trading meme coins and cryptocurrencies in the CEX, but what people don’t appreciate is that Koreans are not just speculators. They actually are known for creating really great applications. If you look at Kakao, if you look at other kind of applications that Koreans are using in daily basis in terms of UI, UX, they’re so much user friendly.

(00:45:36):

I’ve been to the United States. I’ve been to Korea. I’ve been to Japan. I’ve been to all other countries, and whenever I go to the country, I always try to use what’s the most common app that people in this country use. I spent more than eight years in the United States. To be honest, I could not find better apps in the United States that I use in the Korea.

(00:46:02):

Korea has really convenient applications that are very intuitive and very easy to use. I think Korea is a country of application, and I think, as you know, a lot of crypto, a lot of blockchain people are discussing about abundant block spaces, abundant [inaudible 00:46:21] infra.

(00:46:22):

I think they’re right. We have a lot of infrastructure right now coming out. I think we need an application. We need a consumer app that people can actually use. If they ask me which country and which people are the best to create those kind of applications, then I think Koreans, I think Southeast Asian, and I think Japanese.

(00:46:48):

They’re obsessed with creating intuitive application. They’re obsessed with creating user-friendly UI. They’re obsessed with creating really fancy, maybe very simple, but at the same time front end. I think Koreans are great people when it comes to creating an application.

(00:47:08):

To be honest, we’re not good at creating infrastructure. We haven’t invented and we haven’t actually created or design technological infrastructure. We were not known for that. We’re not known for creating an infrastructure for AI, creating infrastructure for internet, but we were known for creating good applications on top of that.

(00:47:32):

We didn’t create Android or iOS, but a lot of Koreans, all our unicorns within Korea becoming a unicorn kind of figure because they were leveraging iOS and Android to come up with really good applications. When people think of applications, I think they should come to Korea to meet Korean builders to talk about what kind of applications that they can actually come up with. I think that’s the part that actually Westerners and other part of the world don’t appreciate about Southeast Asia and Korea.

Nick (00:48:09):

It’s a great take and I appreciate you answering that question. I want to ask a similar type of question, but maybe more generalized, which is as a researcher then, as somebody who’s doing deep dives on projects, who has a macro level understanding not only of the industry, but because of your background economics.

(00:48:27):

What are some of the narratives or maybe themes that you think will drive the future of this industry? I know things like AI are top of mind, ZK is top of mind, but based on your research, based on your opinion, what are some of the themes or narratives you’re watching?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:48:45):

The most important thing is that a lot of projects are now doing it. Abstract Chain is doing it and anime chains are doing it and other chains are also pushing that path. But as I said, both spaces are abandoned. There’s no need for any more of a generalized both spaces.

(00:49:02):

I think what we need is how can we onboard people who hate storing [inaudible 00:49:11] and mnemonics onto their private databases, and how can we onboard them? How can they have crypto wallet without sacrificing the self-custody? I think what Abstract Chain is trying to do is just exact same thing.

(00:49:30):

They’re trying to abstract all those difficult user experience kind of things to actually onboard existing web3 users to the web3, and I think Sui is also doing quite good. They have zkLogin, which is people can actually use existing their credential, like the Google, Twitch, Facebook, or something like that to log in.

(00:49:54):

Then once they logged in, they actually hide their credentials with ZK, so the information provider like Google cannot match their credentials with their wallet information, so they can also have self-custody. They can also preserve their privacy. Those kind of technologies are really needed, because I want to see people having a crypto wallet with just one second.

(00:50:22):

But nowadays, I think some of the infrastructure project are working hard on removing those barrier to actually onboard regular users to the crypto. I think those aspects are mostly undervalued because of all those buzzword right now. AI in cryptos are important, ZKs are important, and also confidential computations are really important, because in the age of AI, I think in order for agent to mimic myself fully, then I have to give up my data privacy, my privacy as well, because they have to learn all my daily basis routine.

(00:50:59):

But that’s really big privacy kind of stuff. But I think in order for agent to mimic myself without leaking my personal life, then I have to have confidential computation skill. They have to compute my confidential data without decrypting my encrypted data. Confidential computing is also going to be the very important aspect of this industry as well, and confidential computing is also a great combination of crypto and AI as well.

Nick (00:51:32):

For listeners to want to dive deeper into the research that you and the team at Four Pillars are producing, what’s the best way for them to connect, to subscribe, learn more, all of those things? Where should they go?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:51:44):

They can just come to Four Pillars. They can actually read a lot of things that we actually write. Whatever I said right now is based on the researches that I have done. If you guys are interested in reading some of the stuff or what kind of narrative, what kind of keywords, what kind of topics are the most important things these days in crypto, then you guys might come to Four Pillars to actually read our article, read our opinions, because we have different content line.

(00:52:14):

First we have an article. We write about product, we write about the sector or industry in general, and we have opinions in which our researchers reflect our opinions, our perspectives on the things that are happening currently in the blockchain industry. If you guys are keen on exploring those ideas, and if you guys are keen and if you guys are interested in learning about the narrative about this market trend and what is happening, just come to our website and read our stuff.

(00:52:46):

Because I think our contents are more of a refined version of what’s happening on Twitter. Twitter, a lot of people are saying a lot of things. It is very scattered. It is very hard for them to actually focus on one thing. But I think Four Pillars, we’re refining the information. We’re filtering the information for you guys. If you guys are interested in being exposed to high quality information, then Four Pillars might be a good place to visit.

Nick (00:53:18):

Well, Steve, now we’ve reached the point in the podcast where I’m going to ask the GRTiQ 10. These are 10 questions I ask each guest of the podcast every week, and it provides us an opportunity to get to know you a little bit more on the personal side, but I always ask them with hopes that listeners will learn something new, try something different, or achieve more in their own life. Are you ready for the GRTiQ 10?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:53:37):

Oh, yeah. Let’s do it.

Nick (00:53:50):

What book or articles had the most impact on your life?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:53:53):

Oh, there are a couple, to be honest. My most favorite one is Murray Rothbard. His book called For a New Liberty is a book of libertarianism and it’s a book of anarchism. In that book, Rothbard is talking about in an anarchist society, in a free society where no government is involved, how can we have a judicial branch?

(00:54:20):

How can we have a court? How can we have a military? How can we have all those things that government is doing right now? That was the most fascinating book I have ever read, and that actually drew me to the libertarian spaces. That was shocking for me, because I thought that government is something that we always have to have.

(00:54:42):

But Rothbard actually gave me a thinking of maybe we can live without the government. Maybe. Government itself is the problem. [inaudible 00:54:54] the problem. That was the basic thinking that I was having in 2014 and ’15, and that kind of thinking drew me to the blockchain spaces. I might say this book For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard is the most impactful book I have ever read in my entire life, and still this book is impacting me in really, really crucial way.

Nick (00:55:19):

How about this one? Is there a movie or a TV show that you recommend everybody should watch?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:55:24):

Dark Knight by Christopher Nolan. Dark Knight I have watched for 15 times, and whenever I watch them, I always realize something new and I always learn something new. The reason why I like Dark Knight is Batman is a reflection of libertarian, to be honest. He is very deontological. He values life.

(00:55:50):

Even though to the villain, he try not to kill them, and he try to save the world. I think it’s very philosophical movie. Other than Dark Knight, I love Interstellar and I love Dunkirk. I love every movie that Christopher Nolan actually made. You guys got to see Dark Knight, and you guys got to see how Joker and Batman are trying to fight.

(00:56:18):

Their fighting are not physical one. Their fighting are ideological. Their fighting are more of a psychological thing. As a philosophy student, I learned a lot. I realized about what’s the values of human and how we can actually coordinate those society, and why do you need a hero? Why do you need a heroic figure in every industry?

(00:56:42):

I think that also applies to the blockchain. Even though blockchain is pursuing very decentralized society, we have Vitalik, we have Toly. We need those kind of figure as human beings to actually continue the community, continue the engagement. Dark Knight actually gave me a lot of lessons.

Nick (00:57:04):

Judging by some of your earlier answers in the interview, I might make a guess at this, but I’m still going to ask. If you could choose only one music album to listen to for the rest of your life, which one would you choose?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:57:14):

There is no one album that I can listen forever, but if I have to answer, it might be Maroon 5’s album. There was an album called Songs about Jane. It was released in 2002, and every songs within that album is a masterpiece. I can just listen one song within that album for 100 days, because every song is super good.

(00:57:42):

Whenever I listen to their song within that album, even though I love every songs produced by Maroon 5, this one is the best ever. I always listen to this album even in a weekly basis nowadays. I might have played more than 10K times, so I’m not sick and tired of that. This is a really great album, so if you guys haven’t listened to the songs within that album, then please do.

Nick (00:58:13):

How about this one? What’s the best advice someone has ever given to you?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (00:58:16):

As a philosophy student, when I was in hardship and difficulties, Nietzsche actually gave me a good advice. He actually said that, “Death is inevitable, so if you want to commit suicide, don’t, because you’re going to die somehow anyway.” Nietzsche gave me a lot of strong advices about death and dying.

(00:58:40):

He said, “If you want to die, if you just live your life, then you’re going to die soon. You’re going to die anyway, so do not choose to actually do it early, but just be patient.” Those kinds of advices have given me a lot of power, because when my father went bankrupt and I saw no future in my life, I was kind of, “Oh, maybe this is the time maybe I might seriously think about maybe die early.”

(00:59:15):

But I read Nietzsche’s book and he said, “Why die early?” Because he says, “The most foolish thing that you can do is just doing things that are already determined, already determined, already have been chosen.” He gave me a lot of good advices as a philosopher, and that’s why I still live.

(00:59:37):

I might die maybe tomorrow. I don’t know. I cannot predict my life, but dying and death is inevitable, and if it is inevitable, I want to live my life more fruitfully and more fully, because I don’t know when I’m going to die. That lessons actually gave me a lot of energy.

Nick (01:00:01):

I also want to ask you this question about what’s one thing you’ve learned in your life that you don’t think most other people have learned or know quite yet?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:00:09):

Over the past few years, I’ve learned that if you want to be a successful entrepreneur, if you want to be successful businessman, do not accept any advices whatsoever from successful people. That’s my most valuable lesson learned, because I think when it comes to business, when it comes to entrepreneurship, there’s no one answer or the other.

(01:00:33):

Because Elon Musk is successful person because he actually have followed his own path, not others’ path. But whenever I see a lot of people who want to be a successful businessman, they always try to mimic some successful people’s life, like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and stuff.

(01:00:52):

Even in crypto, they try to follow other successful path, but they were successful because they actually followed nobody, but I think a lot of people are not realizing that. I think in crypto and in any kind of businesses, it is always better to actually pioneer your own path rather than following other people’s paths, because followers cannot become a leader whatsoever.

(01:01:21):

I think the most valuable lesson learned that I have learned over my past few years, following nobody and following myself and pioneering new paths is the only way that you can become a successful businessman, successful entrepreneur. That’s the lesson that I have learned and I think that most people don’t know yet.

Nick (01:01:43):

What’s the best life hack you’ve discovered for yourself?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:01:47):

I think this might be controversial, but in my working days, and I have to meet a lot of people. I’ve talked to a lot of people. Whenever I have a free time, I always meditate. I always try to calm down myself, and that was the most effective way to actually energize myself. That is my best life hack I have ever discovered, because after meditating, everything is kind of settled down.

(01:02:17):

Even if I have really crucial problem within my firm and company, everything is settled. Everything is kind of solved after meditating myself. Every problems that cause me worrying, cause me anxious is problem within myself, so whenever I meditate, things are getting settled and things are getting solved. I think every problem is a state of mind, so that’s why meditation is really helpful.

Nick (01:02:47):

You talked to this earlier, but let’s ask this question anyway, because it is part of the GRTiQ 10. But based on your own life observations and experiences, what’s the one habit or characteristic that you would say is the best explanation for why people find success in life?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:03:04):

As I said, the successful people don’t follow other, don’t mimic other. That’s the most important lesson that I have ever learned, because business is not a science. There’s no equation for becoming a successful entrepreneur. But people, all of sudden, they try to make some equations for becoming successful entrepreneur, but there’s none.

(01:03:27):

If you look at Elon Musk, if you look at Jeff Bezos, they have different characteristic, almost opposite characteristics, but they’re all successful. That means that there is no one characteristic or one type of behavior that makes you a successful person, but there is tons of many ways that you can become successful. I think finding your way and pioneering your way is the best way to become a successful person.

Nick (01:03:58):

Then the final three questions. These are complete the sentence type questions. The first one is the thing that excites me most about the future of web3 is?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:04:07):

The thing that most excites me about the future of web3 is maybe interoperability, because now everything is kind of very fragmented. Even not just [inaudible 01:04:18], but every Layer 1, Layer 2, they’re all isolated. I think we’re in the era, the blockchains are kind of considered as an intranet, but I think interoperability is inevitable in order for us to become global scale, more of a mass adaptable technology. I think interoperability as a technology is the most exciting thing that I’m expecting right now.

Nick (01:04:43):

How about this sentence? If you’re on Twitter or X, whatever people call it, then you should be following?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:04:48):

The Graph.

Nick (01:04:49):

Then the final question, I’m happiest when?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:04:55):

I eat good food.

Nick (01:05:06):

Well, Steve, what a pleasure it was to meet you. I really appreciate you taking time today to talk us about your history and your background, how you got interested in the space, and then all the amazing insights that you’ve gained through your research and your writing. If listeners want to stay up to date with you personally, the things you’re working on, the things you’re publishing, what’s the best way for them to stay in touch?

Steve (Namwoong) Kim (01:05:27):

Yeah. Just come to my Twitter or come to my LinkedIn or any other SNS, any other social network that I’m using. I’m using Twitter and LinkedIn. That’s all. Just come to my Twitter and then just send me a DM. I’m more than happy to answer your question if you’re from The Graph community especially, because I know that The Graph fans are really one of the most enthusiastic people.

(01:05:50):

I’m more than happy to answer anything that you guys have. It can be anything about life. It can be anything about blockchain or anything. Just let me know. It was really pleasure talking about my life and talking about crypto and talking about my academic career and my early days with you, Nick. I hope to actually do it maybe on another podcast soon.

Nick (01:06:14):

This has been a production of the GRTiQ Podcast. For more information, including detailed show notes, visit GRTiQ.com/podcast. That’s GRTiQ.com/podcast. Please consider contributing to this project and helping build the community by subscribing and leaving a review.